Hardwired Lighting System Using Cat5

[Sacedog]

With the OnQ switches, it looks like it takes 5 leads for each switch that you wish to wire, which would mean that you would need 1 Cat5 cable per switch. Is this correct? I am trying to figure out how much cabling I will need to run for these, and am under the assumption that I cannot run two switches in the same box, off of the same Cat5.

 

[TonyStewart]

With the OnQ switches, it looks like it takes 5 leads for each switch that you wish to wire, which would mean that you would need 1 Cat5 cable per switch. Is this correct? I am trying to figure out how much cabling I will need to run for these, and am under the assumption that I cannot run two switches in the same box, off of the same Cat5.

There are a couple of ways to wire this.

1. If you want to use the enhanced branch hubs with the ALC switches, and if you want one dip switch (on the enhanced hub) to be dedicated to each swtich then.... The polling loop will take one pair of the cat5 for each switch in the box. In this example you can support 4 ALC switches with one cat5 (Be sure to follow NEC for how many dimmers you can locate together in one box).

This does not take into consideration ALC switches that you want to 3-way to. Any ALC that will be used in a true 3-way (top and bottom of stairs) then you will need 3 conductors from the smart ALC to the aux (or 3-way) ALC. Understand that these go to different places. Of course if there will not be a 3-way used, then there's no need to hook up those 3 wires. Here's an example.
A. The polling loop (one pair) goes to the controller via an optional ehanced branch hub.
B. The AUX (3-Way) uses 3 conductors and goes from the 3-way to the aux (not to the controller, although some people run it to the controller and make connections there).

2. The other method is to tie all ALC pooling loops together (not to exceed 31 per branch) and you only need one pair of a cat5 for this. This is not the prefferred method. The 3-way wiring must still be wired as in 1.b.

 

[Sacedog]

Thanks for the response. So it sounds like the standard smart switch only uses 2 pair for signaling, and gets power from the AC leads. The other 3 LV leads on the top of that switch are for power and signal to the 3-way switches, which could be on a different Cat5 to that switch. The OnQ manual shows those 3 pair going back to the branch hub, then going on to the 3-way switch, but you should just be able to wire directly to from the smart switch to the 3-way?

So based on that, I could have 3 smart switches at the bottom of the stairs, and one 3-way slave at the top of the stairs. There would be one Cat5 cable running from the top of the stairs to the bottom of the stairs (using 3 of the 8 wires in the Cat5), and one Cat5 cable running from the bottom of the stairs to the ALC Enhanced Branch Hub (using 6 of the 8 wires in the Cat5). Sounds right?

Also, if I recall correctly, the Elk Interface has a bunch of built in switch connections, similar to the branch hubs. Does these connections work just like the ones on the branch hub?

 

[Ranger Digital]

cant answer for the elk interface, but you are correct on the wiring comments. exactly right.

there is a special configuration on wiring the aux back to the branch hub if you should choose to do that. but its all explained in the diagram that comes with the branch hub.

i am glad to see more on-q alc's being done. i am really sold on it.

 

[TonyStewart]

Thanks for the response. So it sounds like the standard smart switch only uses 2 pair for signaling, and gets power from the AC leads. The other 3 LV leads on the top of that switch are for power and signal to the 3-way switches, which could be on a different Cat5 to that switch. The OnQ manual shows those 3 pair going back to the branch hub, then going on to the 3-way switch, but you should just be able to wire directly to from the smart switch to the 3-way?

So based on that, I could have 3 smart switches at the bottom of the stairs, and one 3-way slave at the top of the stairs. There would be one Cat5 cable running from the top of the stairs to the bottom of the stairs (using 3 of the 8 wires in the Cat5), and one Cat5 cable running from the bottom of the stairs to the ALC Enhanced Branch Hub (using 6 of the 8 wires in the Cat5). Sounds right?

Also, if I recall correctly, the Elk Interface has a bunch of built in switch connections, similar to the branch hubs. Does these connections work just like the ones on the branch hub?

Ranger is on the money.

Add these thoughts.
You commented that the 3 wires to the aux were for power and signal. Actually, there is no power as the aux is simply two sets of contact closures with a shared common, this no need for power. This fact alone should open up many possibilities for third party integration!

Also, the Elk to M1 interface was created by OnQ and it does not have any dip switches similar to the ones used on the enhanced branch hub. It is simply a lighting controller and an elk serial interface (also known as a bus interface) built onto one circuit board.

If you want the optional features of the enhanced branch hub, then you will need to install one or more.

 

[Ranger Digital]

i just cant imagine where you can buy an enhanced branch hub.

http://www.setnetpro.com/product.asp?3=1747

 

[jdog]

I did not mean to wire for an ADDITIONAL 3-way, just be sure you wire for the normal ones in areas where safety is a concern if the controller system fails. Then you can use one ways and scene switches of aux switches to reduce wall clutter for non safety related loads.

While you could do away with traditional HV 3-way travelers, please do not (I am addressing hallways and stairwells more than uses like front yard 3-ways etc). So let the Elec run as normal. Then.....

let''s paint a picture to begin...
Assuming the Elec ran the wires the most common way....Then.....

Be very careful. I would hate for my advice to lead to an electrocution. So if in doubt call the Electrician. And, use a AC voltmeter to verfiy which wires are the hot ones.

WITH THE BREAKERS OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!

One of the two wall box locations, let's say at the bottom of the stairwell, is where the feed from the breaker panel is.
The other end of the stairwell (the top) is where the light wires are located.
The HV travelers contain three wires (which normally are used for the standard HV 3-way (this can be done slightly differently to Electricians taste).

While at the box at the bottom of the stairs, using the wire from the breaker hot wire (Probably black, at least I hope it's black), attach this wire to the black HV wire on the ALC switch (this is the smart one with the dip switches, not the aux).

ONE VERY IMPORTANT NOTE.

Occasionally we learn that an installer (even Electricians do this) attached the high voltage to the LV wires. I assure you that this will permanently let the smoke out of the switch!
So......... the High Voltage AC attaches to the fat wires....
And....... the Low voltage polling loop and aux wires attach to the skinny wires (cat 5). Better yet...
Keep the drawing handy...

Next attach the black HV cable from the traveler to the blue HV wire on the ALC Smart switch (remember we are still at the bottom of the stairs).

The other two wires in the traveler are for the Neutral (white from the breaker feed) and the ground (green from the breaker feed). Attach them to the other two wires on the traveler.

Now go to the top of the stairs

The HV wire that is matched to the Blue wire (black in the traveler) connects to the black wire from the light (unlike a standard HV 3-way, the HV traveler wires don't connect to the aux or 3-way in any manner).

And the other two traveler wires connect directly to the light box neutral and ground wires.

Now it's a one-way that takes a trip up the stairs, through the box at the top of the stairs (connection point only) and then on the light.

Lastly connect the 3 LV aux wires to 3 of the cat-5 that runs from the top to the bottom of the stairs. And connect two of the cat 5 wires to the polling loop at the bottom of the stairs box and on to the lighting controller.

I’m in the design phase of a new home and I’m pretty sure I want to use the OnQ ALC with an ELK-M1. One of the reasons for the ALC choice is to be able to dumb-down later if needed. So, I will be wiring HV in the conventional way and ‘converting’ to ALC. Just to be clear about the before and after, I’ve made a few sketches that I believe capture your instructions. Does this look correct? For simplicity, I have omitted grounds – please don’t omit grounds in real life!! It also seems the ALC Dimmer or Relay switch can run in a fail safe mode. So, even without the polling circuit (branch connections) attached, basic functionality would remain. Is that right? I understand that the ‘branch connection’ can be daisy chained, but is there a reason I can’t home run each box back to the controller. I’d still daisy chain in a box that contains more than one Dimmer or Relay switch.

Is there anything else I should keep in mind? At this point it is just paper and easy to change. Thanks.

8/20/07 Edit - new drawings with better PDF rendering

View attachment Typical_3_way.pdf

View attachment ALC_3_way.pdf

View attachment Typical_4_way.pdf

View attachment ALC_4_way.pdf

 

[Sacedog]

Number20 will give you the best answer, but that does look correct to me. The only thing that I don't see is that you are not showing any ground wires to the switches, which you will need (hot, neutral, ground, and traveler).

Otherwise, that does look correct for the three way. On the four way, that seems like it will work, but I am not sure as I haven't reasearched that one yet. I just got my electrical plan 2 days ago, marked it up, and sent it back already. I will have a couple of 4 ways I will need to deal with though, so I'm glad you brought up the question.

I had a very good meeting with our electrician, and we talked about the OnQ system. I told him that I would be installing it, and he said no problem (he has been SUPER flexible, and answered a lot of questions for me...really glad to have him wiring our house). He said that he had another client who hasn't started their design process yet, and really want the OnQ system. So he asked ME if he could help out with installing the OnQ system (at no cost to me), so that he could get one install under his belt.

Could you do me a HUGE favor. Since you already have the drawings, could you add the ground wires and repost (assuming Number20 saays they are correct)? I would love to have these to show to our electrician.

 

[TonyStewart]

Number20 will give you the best answer, but that does look correct to me. The only thing that I don't see is that you are not showing any ground wires to the switches, which you will need (hot, neutral, ground, and traveler).

Otherwise, that does look correct for the three way. On the four way, that seems like it will work, but I am not sure as I haven't reasearched that one yet. I just got my electrical plan 2 days ago, marked it up, and sent it back already. I will have a couple of 4 ways I will need to deal with though, so I'm glad you brought up the question.

I had a very good meeting with our electrician, and we talked about the OnQ system. I told him that I would be installing it, and he said no problem (he has been SUPER flexible, and answered a lot of questions for me...really glad to have him wiring our house). He said that he had another client who hasn't started their design process yet, and really want the OnQ system. So he asked ME if he could help out with installing the OnQ system (at no cost to me), so that he could get one install under his belt.

Could you do me a HUGE favor. Since you already have the drawings, could you add the ground wires and repost (assuming Number20 saays they are correct)? I would love to have these to show to our electrician.

The drawing are well done and correct! Congratulations. Of course you omitted ground as you indicated.
Yes, ALC is fail safe. If the controller is down the switch still operates manually.
And yes you may daisy chain all branch connections (not to exceed 31 alc addresses in any one daisy chain). But hoe run is prefferred and works better with optional ALC hubs.
And finally, yes, you may daisy chain all switches inside the same box. But here too, I prefer each to be on it's own cable pair for troubleshooting purposes.

 

[jdog]

I’m using a new PDF rendering method – better quality, much smaller file size – so now I can upload the grounded versions of ALC n-way switch vs. conventional HV n-way switch. Please note, that I am assuming the HV wiring is panel to switch to switch to light. There at least 4 or 5 other ways to wire an n-way switch. Some of those methods go from the panel to the light box. It is my understanding that those methods would not be amenable to conversion to an ALC system.

View attachment Typical_3_way_with_ground.pdf

View attachment ALC_3_way_with_ground.pdf

View attachment Typical_4_way_with_ground.pdf

View attachment ALC_4_way_with_ground.pdf

 

[rocco]

There at least 4 or 5 other ways to wire an n-way switch.

Yes, Jdog. There are five ways to wire a three-way switch.

power -> light -> switch --> switch		   (daisy-chain, starting at the light)

power -> switch --> switch ->light			(daisy-chain, ending at the light. what you show above).

power -> switch --> light --> switch		  (daisy-chain, light-in-the-middle, very common in long hallways)

power -> light --> switch					 (everything branches from the light box)
			  \--> switch

power -> switch -> light					  (everything branches from a switch box)
			  \--> switch

The single arrows ( -> ) are two-wire cable with ground, and the double arrows ( --> ) are three-wire cable with ground.

The first one isn't suited for conversion to most automation technologies, because you can't get a neutral to one of the switch boxes. Unfortunately, it is also one of the most common arrangements. the other four are all usable, as there is a way to get the neutral to the switches.

Four-way is the same. You simply insert a four-way switch somewhere in between the two three-way switches, where there is already three-wire cable.

 

[jdog]

Yes, Jdog. There are five ways to wire a three-way switch.

power -> light -> switch --> switch		   (daisy-chain, starting at the light)

power -> switch --> switch ->light			(daisy-chain, ending at the light. what you show above).

power -> switch --> light --> switch		  (daisy-chain, light-in-the-middle, very common in long hallways)

power -> light --> switch					 (everything branches from the light box)
			  \--> switch

power -> switch -> light					  (everything branches from a switch box)
			  \--> switch

The single arrows ( -> ) are two-wire cable with ground, and the double arrows ( --> ) are three-wire cable with ground.

The first one isn't suited for conversion to most automation technologies, because you can't get a neutral to one of the switch boxes. Unfortunately, it is also one of the most common arrangements. the other four are all usable, as there is a way to get the neutral to the switches.

Four-way is the same. You simply insert a four-way switch somewhere in between the two three-way switches, where there is already three-wire cable.

Just to put some meat on rocco's long hall scenario, I believe this would work. rocco? number20?

View attachment Typical_3_way__light_in_middle.pdf

View attachment ALC_3_way__light_in_middle.pdf

View attachment Typical_4_way__light_in_middle.pdf

View attachment ALC_4_way__light_in_middle.pdf

The unused HV wires should be terminated in some way - perhaps with a small wire nut. This would be especially true in boxes that still have live HV. For example, the “light in middle” ALC drawings have hot HV and unused wires in the light box.

 

[jdog]

Can more than one ALC dimmer be placed in a circuit to control a single light? If so, how is that connected? Does the ALC dimmer switch need 120V to “think"? In other words, how is the smarts powered? I would think the controller would have to be running for this.

Thanks.

 

[Ranger Digital]

Can more than one ALC dimmer be placed in a circuit to control a single light? If so, how is that connected? Does the ALC dimmer switch need 120V to “think"? In other words, how is the smarts powered? I would think the controller would have to be running for this.

Thanks.

Its the same as a three -way, 4 way, or 5 way. Only the alc dimmer is hardwired with HV, the remaining dimmers are ALC Auxillary (not called dimmers, but can dim the lights just like the HV dimmer). The wiring is as the pics in this thread, aux's are cat5, all LV.

Best to wire aux's back to dimmer. Course the dimmer is the only HV but cat5 goes from that dimmer back to either a branch hub or directly to the panel, most commonly back to a branch hub.

hope I understood your question correctly.

 

[jdog]

Its the same as a three -way, 4 way, or 5 way. Only the alc dimmer is hardwired with HV, the remaining dimmers are ALC Auxillary (not called dimmers, but can dim the lights just like the HV dimmer). The wiring is as the pics in this thread, aux's are cat5, all LV.

Best to wire aux's back to dimmer. Course the dimmer is the only HV but cat5 goes from that dimmer back to either a branch hub or directly to the panel, most commonly back to a branch hub.

hope I understood your question correctly.

Thanks Ranger. I did not realize the Auxiliary switches could also do dimming. Somehow, I thought they only did on/off.