Hardwired Lighting System Using Cat5
- Thread starter Sacedog
- Start date
TonyStewart
Active Member
What about a combination of the two? As for the document, do you mean a document(s) beyond the info included in the PDF's or the Training Powerpoints? If so, you and the others please provide a list of most common questions or concerns and I will see what I can pull together. My first thought is to pull the heart from the existing docs and powerpoints, remove the fluff, prioritize then group based on....
What's needed to scope out an install (an overview of all parts and subsystems)?
What's needed to quote a job?
What's needed to plan an install?
What's needed to prewire?
What's needed to trim out?
What's needed to troubleshoot?
Did I leave anything out? Add any specifics that you can and I will put some effort towards this.
I may could even pull a lot of this data from the history of these posts and add some graphics etc.
What does everybody think? I need to hear from several of you if I am to devote the resources to this mission. How much effort and how soon will be based around around many contacts I get. I am not interested in reinventing the world if there is little interest!
God Bless
TS
I'd love to see information like that. I've reviewed the other docs you've included on the setnet site, but even those are just a bunch of "random" documents joined together. It would really help me to see a document that is structured like you posted above. It may contain a lot of the same information (although I suspect it will contain a lot more information that anything else out there), but it would be in a single, logical thought process.
TonyStewart
Active Member
I just posted on our site the ALC Protocols. If you wanted to talk to Tom about this to develop your own coding for use with CQC drivers (or any drivers for any system), then this will be what you need. Also note that there is also an ALC Developers kit located here as well. This is all data that exists, Tom has no more than this.
OnQ will not offer support for developers. You are pretty much on your own (unless you threaten them with money)!
From the menu, select the OnQ ALC Link
God Bless
TS
beelzerob
Senior Member
Well, Tom and I have been in communication quite a bit. He's helped me with the CQC driver creation, and I had some suggestions for protocol/firmware changes that may or may not get implemented. He was also going to help me troubleshoot some weird things I was seeing in the protocol message exchanging (some things weren't documented fully), but that was several months ago, I think they were moving or something, and he just never got back. So he should know what we were talking about, I just didn't want to bug him again with another email. I just figured if you were able to get ahold of him, then that'd be another way. Otherwise, I'll wait until it's time to revisit the CQC driver, and try him again.
Tom's a great guy and does give me pretty good confidence in the future of ALC products.
Tom's a great guy and does give me pretty good confidence in the future of ALC products.
felixrosbergen
Senior Member
Hi beelzerob:
Is you CQC driver working properly now despite this 'weird message exchange'?
I'm still on the fence on having CQC or ELK control the lighting. I like the hardware/reliability aspect of the ELK, but it seems i wouldnt have access to the extended ramp up/down features.
My searches so far have not been able to uncover some sort of feature comparison between ALC controlled by ELK and by CQC. I had actually planned to offer myself as the gineau (spelling??) pig for this, but realized that ALC's ELK interface module is so much cheaper than getting the ALC controller, ALC serial expander and an ELK M1XSP. For now i'll probably go the ELK route and if i find any features that i thin i'm missing i can always switch.
While my Server (Windows Home Server) has been rock solid so far (installed for 3 months and not a error or bluescreen so far) I travel a lot and leave the wife alone so I want the most solid solutiuon. Also if i ever had to sell the home i would think if a new owner was interested at all they woudl prefer something hardwired.
I will eb ordering a bunch of switches/aux's and such next week (from setnet) and finally start my install.
Number20 (TS from setnet) has provided great support and info so far, but since they are only 1 shop/store does anybody know who else sells this stuff? In these economic times the future of any business is questionable and i woudl like a back-up shop in case one goes belly up.
Is you CQC driver working properly now despite this 'weird message exchange'?
I'm still on the fence on having CQC or ELK control the lighting. I like the hardware/reliability aspect of the ELK, but it seems i wouldnt have access to the extended ramp up/down features.
My searches so far have not been able to uncover some sort of feature comparison between ALC controlled by ELK and by CQC. I had actually planned to offer myself as the gineau (spelling??) pig for this, but realized that ALC's ELK interface module is so much cheaper than getting the ALC controller, ALC serial expander and an ELK M1XSP. For now i'll probably go the ELK route and if i find any features that i thin i'm missing i can always switch.
While my Server (Windows Home Server) has been rock solid so far (installed for 3 months and not a error or bluescreen so far) I travel a lot and leave the wife alone so I want the most solid solutiuon. Also if i ever had to sell the home i would think if a new owner was interested at all they woudl prefer something hardwired.
I will eb ordering a bunch of switches/aux's and such next week (from setnet) and finally start my install.
Number20 (TS from setnet) has provided great support and info so far, but since they are only 1 shop/store does anybody know who else sells this stuff? In these economic times the future of any business is questionable and i woudl like a back-up shop in case one goes belly up.
TonyStewart
Active Member
We have an ALC "coupon special" starting on 2/16/2009. The coupon offers a good discount for a short amount of time for ALC and a few other related products. If you don't see the coupon on our site, contact me and I will email it. It is a special deal between us and a few manufacturers. As such, we are waiting on a few final details from them to complete it and I asked them to finalize their process so that we could be ready on 2/16/2009.
TS
felixrosbergen
Senior Member
TS:
This woudl be great timing. Any idea what size/value the discount would be? Maybe it will help some others pull the trigger as well and jump in.
This woudl be great timing. Any idea what size/value the discount would be? Maybe it will help some others pull the trigger as well and jump in.
beelzerob
Senior Member
Absolutely. I can't even remember what the weirdness was. It was just something where the actual data coming was different from what the protocol said. But if I have a feature listed on the cqc driver, then it works.
WayneW
Senior Member
Tony,
Is there a document aimed at Elk users? I would love to see a fairly simple document that lists exactly what ALC parts are needed for a small, medium and large (or low-end & high end) installations. I seem to drive myself in circles trying to decipher the multitude of OnQ options and determine which would apply to an Elk M1 install.
Have you ever considered a rental/loaner evaluation kit? Since OnQ doesn't show ALC at trade shows, I would love to get a couple of switches in house to play with for a week or two... the smooth switches, the dimple switches, the scene switches, different colors, etc. It would be nice to have them functional, but even if they were used, dead/blown switches, it would let us potential customers get a better impression and spouse approval.
felixrosbergen
Senior Member
Hi Wayne,
I agree there is a lot of parts to choose from, but i think i got it narrowed down pretty good now since i am placing my order soon. The informatio below is all resulting from my studies of this system and not tons of years of practical experience. The recent documents posted by Tony Stewart have been a great help, they are here nut you do need to register with SetNet (which is free and doesnt commit you to anything) to view them.
I guess it large depends on the size of the installation, but as a base for any size installation using ELK control it appears you need part number 364864-01 Lighting Interface, ALC to ELK M1 Automation Controller. It will do the basic communication between the ELK and ALC systems. This is a single product that connects directly to the ELK databus (hub).
If you don't go the ELK route and want to have something else control the lights (e.g. CQC) then you woudl need the following parts: 364644-01 Lighting Controller, ALC, Home Lighting Controller AND 364698-01 Lighting Interface, ALC, Serial Expansion Module.
From here on out its all the same no matter if you use ELK or something else to control the lights.
The above setup will give you 1 'branch' or 31 adresses (each dimmer/relay switch and scene switch needs an adress, AUX switches don't need one). If you need more than 31 adresses you will need part 364726-01 Lighting Interface, ALC, Expansion to create the additional branches.
The description below describes 1 branch, it woudl apply if you have the single branch of the normal or ELK controllers but also applies to each of the 3 branches of the expansion module.
The branch starts with a RJ45 port on the controller or expansion module. From there on out you can connect to the house in many many different ways. You can daisy chain from device to device or you can do single or multi level star topology. They all have limitations on their total cable length.
From my understanding for shorter cable runs you can simply use the 364645-01 Lighting Interface, ALC Distribution Module. This essentially functions as an ethernet hub and just provided a neat way to tie all the wiring together for you. For longer runs (or for those you want to be more 'safe') you can use 364677-01 Lighting Hub, ALC Branch Hub AND/OR 364736-01 Lighting Hub, ALC Branch Hub, Enhanced. Either one of these conditions and boosts the ALC communication signals for longer cable runs. The difference between then is the dipswitches on the enhanced hub so you can switch cable runs of and on during troubleshooting. Don't confuse each cable run from the hubs as a ALC branch, the hubs only tie the wiring together. You can only connect a maximum of 31 devices to each branch coming from the controller, not matter if you run it though hubs or anything else.
Initially i had planned to homerun cat5 from each switch location to the wiring room, but the quantity of runs i starting toget a bit rediculous and my conduits from basement to attic are starting to get full. I am thinking about changing strategy to put a box in the attic with some of the hubs and essential have 2 main locations to which everything is homerunned. The box is the attic will be reasonably accesible, but not as good as in the basement. Oh well..hopefully once it's all in i won't have to do much to it anymore.
This document has been a real eye opener for me and details very well how the wiring is done and the different options.
I agree there is a lot of parts to choose from, but i think i got it narrowed down pretty good now since i am placing my order soon. The informatio below is all resulting from my studies of this system and not tons of years of practical experience. The recent documents posted by Tony Stewart have been a great help, they are here nut you do need to register with SetNet (which is free and doesnt commit you to anything) to view them.
I guess it large depends on the size of the installation, but as a base for any size installation using ELK control it appears you need part number 364864-01 Lighting Interface, ALC to ELK M1 Automation Controller. It will do the basic communication between the ELK and ALC systems. This is a single product that connects directly to the ELK databus (hub).
If you don't go the ELK route and want to have something else control the lights (e.g. CQC) then you woudl need the following parts: 364644-01 Lighting Controller, ALC, Home Lighting Controller AND 364698-01 Lighting Interface, ALC, Serial Expansion Module.
From here on out its all the same no matter if you use ELK or something else to control the lights.
The above setup will give you 1 'branch' or 31 adresses (each dimmer/relay switch and scene switch needs an adress, AUX switches don't need one). If you need more than 31 adresses you will need part 364726-01 Lighting Interface, ALC, Expansion to create the additional branches.
The description below describes 1 branch, it woudl apply if you have the single branch of the normal or ELK controllers but also applies to each of the 3 branches of the expansion module.
The branch starts with a RJ45 port on the controller or expansion module. From there on out you can connect to the house in many many different ways. You can daisy chain from device to device or you can do single or multi level star topology. They all have limitations on their total cable length.
From my understanding for shorter cable runs you can simply use the 364645-01 Lighting Interface, ALC Distribution Module. This essentially functions as an ethernet hub and just provided a neat way to tie all the wiring together for you. For longer runs (or for those you want to be more 'safe') you can use 364677-01 Lighting Hub, ALC Branch Hub AND/OR 364736-01 Lighting Hub, ALC Branch Hub, Enhanced. Either one of these conditions and boosts the ALC communication signals for longer cable runs. The difference between then is the dipswitches on the enhanced hub so you can switch cable runs of and on during troubleshooting. Don't confuse each cable run from the hubs as a ALC branch, the hubs only tie the wiring together. You can only connect a maximum of 31 devices to each branch coming from the controller, not matter if you run it though hubs or anything else.
Initially i had planned to homerun cat5 from each switch location to the wiring room, but the quantity of runs i starting toget a bit rediculous and my conduits from basement to attic are starting to get full. I am thinking about changing strategy to put a box in the attic with some of the hubs and essential have 2 main locations to which everything is homerunned. The box is the attic will be reasonably accesible, but not as good as in the basement. Oh well..hopefully once it's all in i won't have to do much to it anymore.
This document has been a real eye opener for me and details very well how the wiring is done and the different options.
Obviously using a hub will make life easier, but it definitely looks like it is optional. So in my case where I have an ELK, I could purchase the ALC to ELK Control unit and literally daisy chain up to 31 switches together and plug them directly into the control unit. Of course my total cable length should be less than 500' in any scenerio.
But I have a question about using hubs. All the hubs listed have limited wiring terminations. So is it OK to still wire several switches together in a single run and then attach that run to a hub (ie 5 switches wired together in a single run x four of these runs = 20 switches terminated at the hub)? Or are the hubs only designed to have 1 switch wired to each termination point and are therefore generally limited to 6-9 switches each?
But I have a question about using hubs. All the hubs listed have limited wiring terminations. So is it OK to still wire several switches together in a single run and then attach that run to a hub (ie 5 switches wired together in a single run x four of these runs = 20 switches terminated at the hub)? Or are the hubs only designed to have 1 switch wired to each termination point and are therefore generally limited to 6-9 switches each?
felixrosbergen
Senior Member
sic0048:
My understanding is that the hub could serve both single switches (with their related aux swiches) but can also server as the hub for several 'branches'. Don't confuse branches in this context with the main branches of the controller.
So from what i understand based on reading the documentation closely you could do what you are asking. Daisy chan some switches together on a 2 wire bus and then have several busses connect to the tub (as long as the total is under 31). You will loose the advantage of terminating the aux switches, but if the runs are long this may be better done in the field anyway. If you have several switches in 1 gangbox i woudl definetely not expect to run a 2 wire (or 3 if you're using the aux) to the hub for each switch. I woudl run a 2 wires and depending on the use of aux switches they would connect locally at the switch or in the wiring room (on a cat5 with the 8 conductors you woudl have 1 2 wire bus and up to 2 3 wire aux control.
My understanding is that the hub could serve both single switches (with their related aux swiches) but can also server as the hub for several 'branches'. Don't confuse branches in this context with the main branches of the controller.
So from what i understand based on reading the documentation closely you could do what you are asking. Daisy chan some switches together on a 2 wire bus and then have several busses connect to the tub (as long as the total is under 31). You will loose the advantage of terminating the aux switches, but if the runs are long this may be better done in the field anyway. If you have several switches in 1 gangbox i woudl definetely not expect to run a 2 wire (or 3 if you're using the aux) to the hub for each switch. I woudl run a 2 wires and depending on the use of aux switches they would connect locally at the switch or in the wiring room (on a cat5 with the 8 conductors you woudl have 1 2 wire bus and up to 2 3 wire aux control.
TonyStewart
Active Member
We hope to know early this week. It may be different for each participating Manufacturer. We will send an email blast to all subscribers to our website. Even though the coupons are available to other authorizied distributors, I don't want to promote this here for obviouse reasons. So you'll have to watch our home page or be on our mailing list.
TS
TonyStewart
Active Member
All correctly said. Add this thought....
There are two kinds of hubs. An enhanced version with a dip switch to turn on/off any one ALC (group of ALC) that is connected to that termination. The other type does not have a dip switch at all. Here is how that matters.
Both types are signal conditioners for the two wire 4 volt ALC polling loop (communication to the controller).
Both expect a maximum of 500 feet of total cable runs.
Both allow a star wiring as you described where one hub can feed 9 more or many variations of that.
Only the enhanced version has dip switches.
The enhanced hub with the dip switches should always have one switch per dip switch, otherwise you diminish your troubleshooting capabilities. Note however that one enhanced hub can be put in front of others in the star wiring arraignment, just limit the other points on the star to one dip switch per ALC address for best troubleshooting flexibility. This is normally not done unless you have a large number of switches and hubs.
Is that clear as mud (it's Monday morning)?
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