Hardwired Lighting System Using Cat5

jdog, yup and its great because the auxillary (dumb) switches are CHEAP and require ZERO programming - no code, no dip switches, no command lines, NOTTA!

"CONNECTS DIRECTLY TO ALC RELAY and Dimmer switches as a slave to provide multi-way local on/off and dimming control. Does not connect directly to the 120VAC load or system controller." From on-q's website, aux switches.

THey just are an extension of whatever you hook them too, if hooked to a dimmer, they dim. if hooked to a relay switch (just and off on switch) they just turn off and on.

EDIT: ANother super duper thing about on-q alc is if the panel goes out or loses power or your programmed gets botched, guess what? you alc dimmers AND the auxillary switches STILL work!!! cant say the same about all other HA lighting solutions. if you got HV power still in house, your alc dimmers and switches will still work!! (your programming switches wont work if your panel goes down, but so what)
 
EDIT: ANother super duper thing about on-q alc is if the panel goes out or loses power or your programmed gets botched, guess what? you alc dimmers AND the auxillary switches STILL work!!! cant say the same about all other HA lighting solutions. if you got HV power still in house, your alc dimmers and switches will still work!! (your programming switches wont work if your panel goes down, but so what)

This is one of the biggest reasons that I like the ALC, and have decided to purchase the system (just placed my order with setnet last week). Here is why I went with ALC, and not another hard-wire solution or with a powerline solution. Note: some systems will do some of this, but none that I looked at did all of it (iLine was close, but it was a tad more expensive).
  • Switches can be used as normal switches, even if the controller is not functioning (this way, I can get the switches in for Mr. Inspector, without having to have everything programmed yet) :)
  • Parts are readily available via the Internet or local dealers (this is one where iLine did not fare so well)
  • Reliability of a hard-wired system
  • Do not have to home-run HV wiring to a centralized location
  • Cost was competitive with powerline solutions
  • Can be integrated with an Elk system
  • Can easily be removed and replaced with standard switches (in case future homeowner wants that)
  • Not complicated to install
 
Hey Guys

I think we re leaning towards ALC in our new construction. If you search the threads on this forum regarding ALC, many feel that ALC support/Product availability are diminishing.

What are your thoughts, and I would be partiuclarly interested in what Number20 has to say...
 
This is one of the biggest reasons that I like the ALC, and have decided to purchase the system (just placed my order with setnet last week). Here is why I went with ALC, and not another hard-wire solution or with a powerline solution. Note: some systems will do some of this, but none that I looked at did all of it (iLine was close, but it was a tad more expensive).
  • Switches can be used as normal switches, even if the controller is not functioning (this way, I can get the switches in for Mr. Inspector, without having to have everything programmed yet) :(
  • Parts are readily available via the Internet or local dealers (this is one where iLine did not fare so well)
  • Reliability of a hard-wired system
  • Do not have to home-run HV wiring to a centralized location
  • Cost was competitive with powerline solutions
  • Can be integrated with an Elk system
  • Can easily be removed and replaced with standard switches (in case future homeowner wants that)
  • Not complicated to install

Fantastic Sacedog, good luck with your new system. I'm very tempted by ALC, but I have a wife issue which disqualifies it. A single on click on ALC (like most of these systems) invokes the last preset-dim level. This is usually 10% because the last person to use the switch held it to that level before turning it off. I hate this feature, but it can be mitigated by the presence of light level LEDs on the switch. Unfortunately ALC doesn't have dimmers with light level LEDS on them, and even if they did, the AUX switches don't have the LEDS (and can't based on the three wire protocol).

Number20, tell me I'm wrong and you may get a very large order ;-)

--Bob

P.S. I'm surprised ALC was cheaper than iLine! Maybe I'm not factoring in the difference in the AUX switches (iLine AUXes are pricey because they're smarter than ALC AUXes).

P.P.S. I don't care if I get the parts from local retailers or direct from the manufacturer - as long as parts are available when I need them (forever). I think both companies have similar concerns in this area...
 
rb, you could add another programmable switch and have it do whatever you want, ie 100%. of course the down side to that is there is another switch on the wall. the programmable switches can be a single button or four button. but, i think you are right in your last post.

ps. those that go alc dont forget to install the DEEPEST gang boxes on the market as the alc switches are large.
 
I'm very tempted by ALC, but I have a wife issue which disqualifies it. A single on click on ALC (like most of these systems) invokes the last preset-dim level. This is usually 10% because the last person to use the switch held it to that level before turning it off. I hate this feature, but it can be mitigated by the presence of light level LEDs on the switch. Unfortunately ALC doesn't have dimmers with light level LEDS on them, and even if they did, the AUX switches don't have the LEDS (and can't based on the three wire protocol).

Number20, tell me I'm wrong and you may get a very large order ;-)

--Bob


Bob,

Good news -- the ALC preset dim doesn't actually work as you think it does. The ALC preset is a true preset and not a "last used" value. You can programmatically set a preset value on each individual dimmer using the ALC Scene Tech software, custom software, etc. The one caveat is that the preset resets to 50% if the dimmer modules loses power, so you'll need to have your home automation controller re-program the preset values of each dimmer on power-up.

On-Q has a good amount of ALC information available on their Web site (once you login), and their customer support team has been helpful when I've contacted them in the past. A great reference document is the "OnQHomeLightingManual", which is essentially a compilation of all of OnQ's ALC technical information.

Another resource is Worthington Distribution's forum -- http://www.worthingtonsolutions.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl . Just search "all posts" for "ALC".

Hope this helps,
-Bill
 
This thread is by far the best source of information for hardwired lighting systems. For the ALC system, I have a question about the number of auxiliary switches that can be connected to a dimmer/relay. The literature for the branch hub shows that 4- or 5-way switching can be done using connection points 8 and 9. Can 4- or 5-way switching be done by just splicing the wires for the auxiliary switches together or do they have to go through a branch hub? And, if the wires can be spliced together, is there a limit on the number of auxiliary switches that can be connected together?

Thanks,
Brian
 
This thread is by far the best source of information for hardwired lighting systems. For the ALC system, I have a question about the number of auxiliary switches that can be connected to a dimmer/relay. The literature for the branch hub shows that 4- or 5-way switching can be done using connection points 8 and 9. Can 4- or 5-way switching be done by just splicing the wires for the auxiliary switches together or do they have to go through a branch hub? And, if the wires can be spliced together, is there a limit on the number of auxiliary switches that can be connected together?

Thanks,
Brian

Hey Brian
Yes, You may simply connect aux wiring together to go add as many as you need. Parallel all connections and remember that the contacts are dry contacts and as such excessive cable lenghts could weaken the signals.

THe branch hub and/or the enhanced branch hub stregthens and buffers the polling loop signal to the ALC switches, but does nothing to the aux inputs. Yes, these hubs are optional but make a cleaner and healthier installation when used. And..... the enhanced branch hub adds dip switches for troubleshooting.

Also remember that the dry contact closure nature opens the door to integrating the ALC switches to a wide variety of other applications.
 
I'm very tempted by ALC, but I have a wife issue which disqualifies it. A single on click on ALC (like most of these systems) invokes the last preset-dim level. This is usually 10% because the last person to use the switch held it to that level before turning it off. I hate this feature, but it can be mitigated by the presence of light level LEDs on the switch. Unfortunately ALC doesn't have dimmers with light level LEDS on them, and even if they did, the AUX switches don't have the LEDS (and can't based on the three wire protocol).

Number20, tell me I'm wrong and you may get a very large order ;-)

--Bob


Bob,

Good news -- the ALC preset dim doesn't actually work as you think it does. The ALC preset is a true preset and not a "last used" value. You can programmatically set a preset value on each individual dimmer using the ALC Scene Tech software, custom software, etc. The one caveat is that the preset resets to 50% if the dimmer modules loses power, so you'll need to have your home automation controller re-program the preset values of each dimmer on power-up.

On-Q has a good amount of ALC information available on their Web site (once you login), and their customer support team has been helpful when I've contacted them in the past. A great reference document is the "OnQHomeLightingManual", which is essentially a compilation of all of OnQ's ALC technical information.

Another resource is Worthington Distribution's forum -- http://www.worthingtonsolutions.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl . Just search "all posts" for "ALC".

Hope this helps,
-Bill


Bob
I have not been checking the board lately, so this response is old. You are right in the way the last preset works, but let me explain it further.

When you press the switch on one time, it goes to the last level is was at (50%, full on etc). When you double tap it twice, it goes full on/off.

Yes programming can do some other things, but I like to plan for manual operation as the prime user method and autoamted scenes lastly.

Currently we outstock most suppliers for these products and this month there is a strong special running (until my overstock is gone).
 
Hey Guys

I think we re leaning towards ALC in our new construction. If you search the threads on this forum regarding ALC, many feel that ALC support/Product availability are diminishing.

What are your thoughts, and I would be partiuclarly interested in what Number20 has to say...

Again I am late to the table. I'm not getting any emails from the board lately so forgive me for the late comments.

ALC is over 12 years old. Created originally by AMP (previous owner of OnQ) to replace their proprietary Smarthouse systems. Before the actual creation of the switch, I was a consultant to AMP and suggested the need. Then one of the most talented engineers I know of, Mr. Gary Axe created it.

The perceived lack of support may come from the fact that some of my distribution competitors don't stock it and as such don't promote it for what is is and does. And, recently OnQ dropped the "dimpled paddles (rockers)" and now only have smooth rockers. This was construed by some as a lack of support and was even used by ALC enemies to claim the product line was dropped (WRONG). But Gary Axe assures me that it is a main line product and will remain so. I guess we all try to play down what we don't do and play up what we do. Here at SETNET we will talk about OnQ ALC more than a product we don't distrubute and I guess the other distributors do the same with their favorite products.

Not only that, but Gary Axe has recently created new interfaces for the product to allow it to work with the Elk M1 (in stock on our site). He also added several new products within the last year to the line. So............ support is not going away and the product is being expanded.

Here are some failure rate numebrs.
In our new offices and training center, we have almost 100 ALC devices - None were bad out of box, none has failed in the last 18 months
We recently installed over 130 ALC devices in a friends home in Honolulu with the same results.
 
The only unfortunate aspect of on-q alc is THEY dont promote it. They will tell you FLAT OUT to your face they dont, as well as their HMS controllers. I cannot make sense of it. They claim its less than 2% of their total volume. So? To me that reaks OPPORTUNITY for the manager of that "group" to have a gang buster division that has the highest percentage increase in sales. That division COULD have 300% growth. How many can brag about that? They refer to it as their "blue collar" line. Ok, so? It works. Its not cheap. They are more focused on their vantage line but IMO, ALC is a very viable solution for even high end homes. Kind of frustrates me their lack of support. (not saying TECH support, they are pretty good).

ALC and on-q HMS are rock solid and a viable product. its unfortunate they wont promote it. it DOES make one think it will be all gone one day and soon. They claim it wont go away. On-Q biz plans make no sense to me, none.

I think the biggest issue in the lack of effort on On-q's part for ALC and HMS is their relationship with HAI. To that I say get over it and fix it.
 
Well, I read very nearly every posting, and a good read it was. I'm about 2 weeks away from starting my LV wiring, and I'm about 4 days away from meeting with the electrician.

I think I'm convinced now on OnQ over iLine, but I need one last solid piece of info.....how do I prewire for OnQ? Do I need to run a separate cat5 run from the wiring closet to each switch I want to eventually convert to a controlled switch, or do I start in the wiring closet and run the cat5 to every switch in one long meandering cable run?

sacedog, any problems come up since you made your decision?
 
The only unfortunate aspect of on-q alc is THEY dont promote it. They will tell you FLAT OUT to your face they dont, as well as their HMS controllers. I cannot make sense of it. They claim its less than 2% of their total volume. So? To me that reaks OPPORTUNITY for the manager of that "group" to have a gang buster division that has the highest percentage increase in sales. That division COULD have 300% growth. How many can brag about that? They refer to it as their "blue collar" line. Ok, so? It works. Its not cheap. They are more focused on their vantage line but IMO, ALC is a very viable solution for even high end homes. Kind of frustrates me their lack of support. (not saying TECH support, they are pretty good).

ALC and on-q HMS are rock solid and a viable product. its unfortunate they wont promote it. it DOES make one think it will be all gone one day and soon. They claim it wont go away. On-Q biz plans make no sense to me, none.

I think the biggest issue in the lack of effort on On-q's part for ALC and HMS is their relationship with HAI. To that I say get over it and fix it.

You are right about how they don't promote it. It's because of a combination of factors.

First it's a product that's harder to understand than structured wiring and is a much smaller portion of their sales than say TV/Telephone distribution or intercom systems. So, the bulk of OnQ sales reps and agents spend their time where their experience level is. There are however a substantial number of OnQ reps who are experts and promote it well. If the reps in your area do not know how to talk the language then chances are, they don't understand the technology.

Next, Since Legrand now funds OnQ's direction, they spend the bulk of their time moving towards the things that sell the fasted and the mostest! There are some who realize like you that opportunity exists. we also know this. And in my case we spend our time promoting the product and teaching classes on it. As such we at SETNET number among the largest suppliers of the ALC product line each year.

As for Vantage, they don't expend much energy either. That division is doing a good job without much corporate involvement and are better for it.

The relationship between HAI & OnQ is an interesting one and there has been recent talks about the two slow dancing a lot closer. There are a number of HMS enhancements around the corner and any doubting Thomas who says otherwise will eat some crow in 2008.

One of the most overlooked products that OnQ has is their stand alone controllers and interfaces for ALC lighting. It amazes me that few people (especially you techies in the DIY world) don't capitalize on the power and low cost of these products more. For example you can create a stand alone lighting system and link it to almost any control scheme through the stand alone ALC serial interface and or Input Output modules.

With my distributorships inventory so closely tied to OnQ and ALC products I would feel like a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs if I thought OnQ would move away from the line. I am committed to the product line and my warehouse proves it!

My words are not just opinion, they are educated and experienced. Remember my earlier posts about being a consultant on the roll out of the first ALC switch. While Gary Axe at OnQ is the real genious, I mention my long range (over 12 years with the ALC product world) cloeseness to the family of products to qualify me as not just another opinion.

Lastly and sadly OnQ now commands the dominant market share in several areas of our industry and they are backed by deep pockets. They are no longer the employee owned company who could turn on a dime. Instead, they must work through the politics to make any moves. As such promotion and product development takes longer but has a more solid foundataion. I like this better than worrying over them going out of business due to poor cash flow!

Signs are that the building insdustry is slowing quite a bit and this shake up may force a lot of smaller manufacturers to hunker down or worse yet, force them out of business. So, wading through the politics of a slow moving giant is bothersome, but they will survive an economic downturn far longer than most!
 
sacedog, any problems come up since you made your decision?

Nope, no problems yet...except for the GD building department! With that said, we are still about two weeks away from breaking ground, so I haven't had a chance to install the system yet. I have played around with it, and like it so far (I hooked a couple of switches up in the den, with the wires just hanging out, in order to do some bench testing). I purchased all of the parts from SetNet, but still have to purchase all of the switches. That will be some $$$. ;)

I am probably about 6 months away from having the switches in the new house, so I don't have much info at this point.
 
beez, most likely you will not be running a cat5 from the can to each switch. you will likely have it go to a branch hub. how many switches are you installing? dimmer, relays.
 
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