Help planning Elk system

[Photon]

I like the Data Bus Hub because it simplified troubleshooting during my install, but understand it simply turns a daisy chain RS-485 bus into a wheel-and-spoke layout by doubling back the bus from each device back to the hub. In a situation where you want several devices in a single, isolated location such as your garage, I'd use your CAT-5 cable directly off the Elk controller. I'd either use a hub in the garage, or I'd daisy chain if there are only a couple devices. Then I'd use the EOL terminating resister in the Garage instead of on the Elk controller. You can still connect a Data Bus Hub to the Elk controller for devices in the main location. If you do, remember to use an EOL resister on it.

I'd also use an RF/Keyfob arrangement because my spouse and houseguests understand it, and it makes life so much easier. It also keeps you from having to install a keypad in the garage. I simply told her to use it like she uses the fob for her car. Unlock before you enter; lock after you leave. I've previously encountered some confusion when I explained arming before leaving, leaving only through some doors, and having four separate delay times to live with, depending on which door. The RF Keyfobs totally eliminate that because everyone already understands the concept.

I like the KP2 for the bedroom because it presents more information than the less expensive Keypad Arming Station, but even at most dim, it is too bright. Therefore, I leave illumination off. I was disappointed to find this also kills the flashing F1-F2 LEDs which indicate I left one of the garage doors open. One of these days I'll use the output built into the KP2 to switch an external LED to alert me the garage doors aren't both closed.

Regards. . . John

 

[AceCannon]

This is a (very) rough schematic of how I think you can wire two devices on the same cat5e run from a DBH (databus hub).. You will prob run another short length of cat5e from the keypad to the input expander (or vice versa) to complete the "out and back" concept of RS-485. The terminating jumper should still be used at the DBH in this example.

 

[SnyperBob]

This is a (very) rough schematic of how I think you can wire two devices on the same cat5e run from a DBH (databus hub).. You will prob run another short length of cat5e from the keypad to the input expander (or vice versa) to complete the "out and back" concept of RS-485. The terminating jumper should still be used at the DBH in this example.

Thanks for posting this, I guess I don't understand the concept of the RS-485.

I thought that I could just put the DBH inside the house and run a cat5 to the input expander in the garage. And then connect the keypad in the garage to that expander. And then put an RF tag reader connected to that keypad.

Hmmm, I'm going to have to look over the manuals more and try to figure this out. That's Photon and Ace for pointing out these things to me. I thought it was going to be easier than that, but it still doesn't seem that complicated.

Based on Ace's drawing, will I still be able to plug in a RF tag reader in the garage, connected to the keypad out there?

 

[WayneW]

I thought that I could just put the DBH inside the house and run a cat5 to the input expander in the garage. And then connect the keypad in the garage to that expander. And then put an RF tag reader connected to that keypad.

Hmmm, I'm going to have to look over the manuals more and try to figure this out. That's Photon and Ace for pointing out these things to me. I thought it was going to be easier than that, but it still doesn't seem that complicated.

The DBH is based on a round-trip for the data built-in to the wiring scheme. I suspect a DBHR (R=retrofit) might help you since that is designed to add more single-ended fan-out type legs. I use both a DBH and DBHR in my install. The DBHR drives the keypads using existing 4c wiring and the XIN/XOUT out at the pool. I used the DBH for the XSPs.

 

[SnyperBob]

What are your thoughts and would the setup I explained with the DBH and XIN work how I explain above?

not sure about the ez vs the m1g question, but you will need 2 data lines in the garage, 1 for the expansion module, and one for the keypad. Along with a power source for the motion sensor.

ok, I just looked over the DBH manual and they do show what I want to do with two cat5's. So I see what you mean.

I guess I just have to ask again from those that know......will what Ace outlined with his diagram work?

Thanks!

 

[SnyperBob]

I thought that I could just put the DBH inside the house and run a cat5 to the input expander in the garage. And then connect the keypad in the garage to that expander. And then put an RF tag reader connected to that keypad.

Hmmm, I'm going to have to look over the manuals more and try to figure this out. That's Photon and Ace for pointing out these things to me. I thought it was going to be easier than that, but it still doesn't seem that complicated.

The DBH is based on a round-trip for the data built-in to the wiring scheme. I suspect a DBHR (R=retrofit) might help you since that is designed to add more single-ended fan-out type legs. I use both a DBH and DBHR in my install. The DBHR drives the keypads using existing 4c wiring and the XIN/XOUT out at the pool. I used the DBH for the XSPs.

Hmmm, ok now we're onto something. I thought the DBH and DBH-R were essentially the same thing, it's just that the DBH has jacks so you'd need to crimp on ends to get your wires to plug into it.

I'll have to look all this over more. But I want to do like you said and have more of a fan out leg setup. I want to have one keypad in the MBR, one in the front coat closet, one in the wiring closet, and one in the garage. So I would think a DBH-R with each leg going out to the keypads and garage would be what I want

This is how I envisioned it but maybe I'm not understanding it correctly

 

[WayneW]

Hmmm, ok now we're onto something. I thought the DBH and DBH-R were essentially the same thing, it's just that the DBH has jacks so you'd need to crimp on ends to get your wires to plug into it.

I'll have to look all this over more. But I want to do like you said and have more of a fan out leg setup. I want to have one keypad in the MBR, one in the front coat closet, one in the wiring closet, and one in the garage. So I would think a DBH-R with each leg going out to the keypads and garage would be what I want

Maybe this will help... the DBH is just a series of passive RJ jacks with one terminator in the first unused jack. The DBH requires more than 4c cable. The DBH is great for adding and removing XSPs while you tweak. The DBHR uses active electronics to create 8 legs 4c, each leg needing their own termination. Its primary purpose was to retrofit houses that had multiple keypads already wired with 4c cable, so each keypad was a dead-end.

 

[SnyperBob]

ok, another stupid question, but what is 4c cable? Does that mean 4 conductor cable?

I might be getting this now....so the DBHR is for old houses that only had 4 conductor cables running to their keypads?

But if I run a cat5e to my keypads, I would be able to use a regular DBH since 4 conductors would be used to send the data to the keypad, and the other 4 conductors would be used to return the data from the keypad back to the panel? That's what is meant by back and forth communication or data bus?

It's hard understanding this stuff without having any of the hardware to play with, but I'm thankful you guys answer all my stupid questions before I make a costly mistake

All of my keypads will have cat5e run to them, does that mean I should go with the DBH rather than the DBH-R?

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

FWIW here is an example using a DBHR.

http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/index.php...ost&id=1081

4c = four conductor cable.

The DBH is easier to connect/disconnect your peripherals which is helpful, especially when doing firmware updates.

 

[SnyperBob]

ok, you mentioned XSPs a few times. I'm trying to decide if I will want XSPs in my system and/or what the might be used for.

What do you use your XSPs for? I ask, because it says that an EZ8 only supports 1 XSP, but an M1G supports 7 of them.
But I'm trying to figure out what I would want multiple XSPs for.

The only thing that I can think that I would want to use that has RS232 would be an Insteon Powerlinc to control lights. Other than that, I might only want to connect a computer to the M1, so that would be 2 connections. I don't have any fancy RS232 temperature stuff, and I don't anticipate upgrading to anything like that for my type/size house.

Would I be able to do what I want above with an EZ8 that only supports one XSP? Or is an XSP only for a remote RS232 connection into the M1? ie....if my computer and Insteon Powerlinc is right next to my M1EZ8, then I wouldn't even worry about/use any XSPs?

 

[SnyperBob]

ok, I just looked over the DBH manual and they do show what I want to do with two cat5's. So I see what you mean.

I guess I just have to ask again from those that know......will what Ace outlined with his diagram work?

Thanks!

Hmm, but now I just looked over the manual for a regular keypad:
http://www.elkproducts.com/pdf/M1KP_LCD_Keypad.pdf

And it shows the wiring how Ace drew it up. From the panel to the keypad, and then from the keypad to the expander. But the DBH manual shows each having their own cat5....

This is confusing, but I would assume that Ace is right, and that I would only need one cat5e to have the keypad and expander out in the garage. Now would I still be able to plug a Weigand RF reader into that garage keypad and use that out there too?

 

[IVB]

You use the RS232 on the mainboard for connecting to a PC.

You can use XSP's for Lighting, Thermo's. Serial controllable thermos aren't that expensive, i wouldn't be shocked if you decide you want to do that at a later date. Then again, you could just control that via your PC/HA engine, that's what I do.

 

[SnyperBob]

Also, what kind of experience does everyone have with cold temps and keypads? I want to put a original keypad ELK-M1KP in the garage, since it has the internal temperature sensor. The specs only list 32 to 120 degrees F for the keypad.

My garage is unheated, so it can get down to -10 to -20 F in the winters. Would it still work in this cold of temperatures? I realize that the LCD screen might be a little lethargic that cold, but what if I left the backlight on max? Would that heat the LCD enough to keep it working OK?

Let me know your thoughts about this, because I guess I would need to go with an arming station if none of the LCDs would work.

My car stereo is LCD and is super slow when I start my car up in the cold mornings. After it's been on a little bit and heats up, it works fine. I'm thinking the keypad would be fine if I max out the brightness

 

[Neurorad]

I'm disappointed to hear about the KP2 LED brightness...thought it was completely adjustable.

I'm planning an install myself, and this bit of info is very helpful.

It's just in the last week that I figured out the 'topology' of RS485 - seems like kind of a dated technology, akin to 'token ring' networks. Data has to go to each device. 1000 Foot total limit.

Sorry for the brief OT interruption...I now return you to the regularly scheduled, very helpful thread. Thanks, Snypez.

 

[SnyperBob]

NP Neuro! Now, can someone chime in about the keypads and if they work ok in freezing temps? I need to know about this so I can put in my order:

Also, what kind of experience does everyone have with cold temps and keypads? I want to put a original keypad ELK-M1KP in the garage, since it has the internal temperature sensor. The specs only list 32 to 120 degrees F for the keypad.

My garage is unheated, so it can get down to -10 to -20 F in the winters. Would it still work in this cold of temperatures? I realize that the LCD screen might be a little lethargic that cold, but what if I left the backlight on max? Would that heat the LCD enough to keep it working OK?

Let me know your thoughts about this, because I guess I would need to go with an arming station if none of the LCDs would work.

My car stereo is LCD and is super slow when I start my car up in the cold mornings. After it's been on a little bit and heats up, it works fine. I'm thinking the keypad would be fine if I max out the brightness