Home security with automation advice

Chakara

Active Member
Ok, I'm brand new to the forum although I have been hanging out in the chat room for the last month or so.

Anyway, I was hoping to get some advice on how to go about installing my own security/homeautomation system.

First of, what I have is basically a 2000 square foot house that is pre-wired to all the doors and windows. I haven't yet tested this wire, it appears to all be homerunned into one location and be sub-Cat3 quality.

I played with Homeseer/X10 a while back just for automation stuff (sadly found it via X10.com before they became spamming ho's.) Anyway, Homeseer then was VERY cool and I look forward to using it in my new venture.

What I want:

1) First and foremost is a good and reliable alarm system.
2) Home automation integration. It seems silly to me for these 2 systems to be seperate. I realize that X10 and other similar technologies are not reliable enough for alarms, but hey, if my home automation misses every now and then no biggie.
3) 2 way integration with Homeseer - I want to be able to arm/disarm/whatever zones from homeseer and have homeseer react to alarm events with X10 or similar actions...whatever they may be.

Electron in the chat room threw a bunch of into at me one night, but I suspect I'm not looking in the right places as I can't find real comparisons. He mentioned Elk M1 (available?) and CaddX.

Although part of my job in the Air Force was taking care of security systems, I really have no idea about the systems on the market in the area I am looking. Searching on my own I found HAI - looked promising but I found it difficult at best to get real documention on it's setup. I know many people have been down this road and was hoping some of you might have some advice/pointers/links/whatever to lead me further on my way.

Oh yeah, one last tidbit - I have about $900 budgeted for the alarm system, assuming I will expand it into home automation down the road.

Thanks in advance for any pointers.....
 
As I'm catching up on 2+ weeks of posts that accumulated while I was up north, I'll drop some brief answers, and come back later if you need more info.
1) First and foremost is a good and reliable alarm system.
Given.

2) Home automation integration
Depends on how you define "integration". The Napco and Caddx units are basic securuty systems. The automation capabilities are very low (yes, they can do basic X10, but not much else. However, once you combine them with Homeseer, then you have a potent combination. The HAI (and the Elk) are good security systems, but are also excellent stand-alone HA units. Both have capabilities for phone control, HVAC, and controlled outputs. The downside is that they are more expansive than the security only units. On a side note, the Elk M1 mentioned is new to the market. Elk is a long term player in the security field, and the M1 is it's first full HA offering. It is a direct competitor to the HAI lineup. All indications are that it is going to be a winner, but because it is new, you won't find as much information on it as you will for the other units.

3) 2 way integration with Homeseer
Yes for the Napco, Caddx, and HAI. No for the Elk (so far).

Searching on my own I found HAI - looked promising but I found it difficult at best to get real documention on it's setup
/RANT ON. The security industry has the viewpoint that if the general public knows anything about security systems, it will lead to super burglars, sex outside of marriage, DESTRUCTION OF THE OZONE LAYER, THE END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT!
What a load of horse patooty. Part of the problem is that if the general public becomes educated, they will realize what a bunch of crap the Borg (AKA Brinks, Slomens, ADT, etc) are selling. The $30/month monitoring fees are around 250% profit, and far exceed the value of the "free" alarm systems. /RANT OFF

Bump around some of the HA boards (you are already at the best and brightest :D ), and we can help you muddle through.

I have about $900 budgeted for the alarm system
Giggle, "budget"!?! he he! "HA Budget", ha ha! ROTFLMAO. You think you're going to play with HA and stick to a budget! HAHAHAHAHA! :eek:
 
I'm leaning heavily towards the HAI Omni II (maybe pro just cuz I may want that ethernet port in the future)

Anyway, thanks for the great feedback. This project is getting close to beginning.
 
I'm leaning heavily towards the HAI Omni II (maybe pro just cuz I may want that ethernet port in the future)

I realize you are on a budget, but spend the extra money for the OmniPro II. I can't count the number of times I've heard someone lament that they wish they had bought the larger unit. More zones, greater expansion, more programming lines, etc. It's worth the extra money.
 
jlehnert,
A question or two if I may. What does a system like the Omni Pro II buy me that a combination of say Caddx or Napco and HS wouldn't provide. It seems that a stand alone security system does it's thing well and HS does it's thing well. The fact that the 2 can talk is an added bonus. Throw in the fact that HS integrates well will other hardware and it appears to be a hard to beat combination. I personally do not use a security system nor do I see a reason for one but then again look where I live. I'm just trying to stay informed on all the options.

It just seems to me that buying one of these combination security/HA systems ends up being limited on the HA end in the long run. Am I misinformed? Thanks in advance. Greg
 
Rupp:

The main advantage of having an "all in one" system is ease of integration. For instance I have an Ocelot/Secu16, Caddx NX8E, and Homeseer (on a separate computer). I hate the fact that I have to use CMax for programming the Ocelot, Caddx's awfull DL900 software for programming the NX8E, and Homeseer for programming my events which get triggered by monitoring the Caddx and Ocelot systems.

An example is I have a keypad inside of a laundry room door (for the Caddx) and also monitor my garage door for the security system. After I put the system in arm I open the laundry room door, place the Ocelot in an exit mode and will not "alarm" the garage door untill it sees the "next" closure. This is so I can have the keypad inside my home (not exterior of the laundry room door) and have my wife take her time in getting the car out of the garage (getting the kid in the car seat, etc...). There are more details but its not the point of this discussion.

I had to program and integrate THREE separate programs to get this going (CMax, DL-900 and Homeseer). It would have been nice to just program one system (say the ELK M1 Gold) to get this going and only have Homeseer monitor that system. Once you have an integrated system you can also do things such as turn on or flash certain lights in your home on an alarm very easily.

Just my opinion. I wish I had an Elk M1 Gold (or a HAL system for that matter) to play with so I could do an accurate comparison, but I DO know how difficult it is to work with three separate disparate systems. Also remember that your "average" home automation enthusiast is NOT a programmer. Look at how many people have difficulties just programming CMax and the Caddx system (from boards such as Homeseer forums). That is another advantage of the Elk system. It is very easy to program (according to Leo of ASIHome.com who has one of these systems installed in his home).

Rupp, you should really consider getting a home security system. You will be surprised at the piece of mind it brings especially when you go out of town on business!

Regards,

BSR
 
Stand-alone capability. Take a look at this discussion (I'm SURE you've already read it :lol: ) over on the HS board.

The Omni gives you security, fire, HVAC, relays, and automation in one package. Put all the critical functions on it, and use HS to provide the front end and complex logical operations needed to bring everything to the next level. Think of it this way (in terms of HA capability) CaddX/Napco < Omni < CaddX/Napco + HS < Omni + HS. The better the integral parts, the better the overall system.
 
jlehnert said:
Think of it this way (in terms of HA capability) CaddX/Napco < Omni < CaddX/Napco + HS < Omni + HS. The better the integral parts, the better the overall system.
OK, I will stick my neck out again. I have asked this before, but never got an answer I liked. I ask this out of ignorance, not intended to flame or argue. My alarm panel is old & dumb with very simple home-built HS integration and I am debating what to replace it with if/when I move.

What makes HS & HAI/ElkM1G better than HS & Caddx/Napco? What specific things can be done better and easier? What things are possible with HAI/Elk that are not possible with Caddx/Napco without extra gadgets, relays & misc glue? Based on Tinks comments, the best way to deal with HAI Tstats is to hook them directly to HS, rather than to the HAI panel, so that takes any Tstat advantage away from HAI.

The most obvious answer I see is that the HAI/Elk panels could do more on their own if HS failed than a Caddx/Napco class panel could.
 
What things are possible with HAI/Elk that are not possible with Caddx/Napco without extra gadgets, relays & misc glue?
With the double negative, I'm not clear on the question, but I'll try.

The HAI/Elk already have the relays, etc built in, so you don't have to add them in. Tink is probably correct that the BEST way to use the HAI stats is directly to HS, but it is not the ONLY way. You can still have the stats go to the HAI, with less effort than going to HS. I've never seen a need to call emergency heat from the panel, and it's not like HAI panels and HAI stats don't work together. They do very well, but HAI doesn't use the stats to their fullest capability.

The most obvious answer I see is that the HAI/Elk panels could do more on their own if HS failed than a Caddx/Napco class panel could.
That's another part. Probably the biggest thing for me is that the HAI/Elk are automation controllers. The Napco/CaddX are alarm panels with HA add-ons. Realistically, the Napco/Caddx really have little if any HA capabilities without HS. The HAI/Elk come with very robuts HA programming languages.

At the bottom line, it's very much a design decision. The Napco/CaddX method is the equivelant of an orchestra made up of monkeys. Yes they cna be trained to play the music, but the conductor better be on his game all the time. The HAI/Elk is an orchstra made up of musicians. They bring extra talent to the composition, and if the conductor wants to spend a few minutes outside looking at the girls, the band will continue to play.
 
The HAI/Elk is an orchstra made up of musicians. They bring extra talent to the composition, and if the conductor wants to spend a few minutes outside looking at the girls, the band will continue to play.
Impressive, very impressive!
 
The last time I looked the ELK was not yet available. Now I look around and, at first glance, looks like the ELK may be cheaper than an HAI.

The only question then is who is working on the plugin for Homeseer? It is really in development or just vaporware? If I do a system, I'd hate ito have to write my own interface (yeah, like I actually could to begin with..hehe)
 
Currently there is NO plugin for Homeseer for the Elk M1 Gold. A Homeseer forum memeber is working on one, but no product exists as of this date.
 
looks like the ELK may be cheaper than an HAI.
It's hard to make a direct comparison becasut of feature differences, but that is my impression also.

A Homeseer forum memeber is working on one, but no product exists as of this date
Someone (either Tink or Martin) mentioned that there is a second person working on one also, but nothing has made it to beta stage yet.
 
Ok, let me clarify my question. With the features the the ELK seems to offer over the HAI, if you were in my boat - starting from scratch, wanting the right alarm system that will integrate with HomeSeer in the future, and having never had your hands on either of the systems, which would you choose? Elk or HAI?

I'm leaning to HAI right now just for the known good plugin, however if I can hit an ELK via ethernet, that is a big issue for me (IE: I don't have to crawl through the ceiling with a snake in hand.)

So the gamble becomes, what are the odds that the HS ELK plugin will develop to something compareable and hopefully beyond what the HAI one has in a reasonable amount of time? Will the source be available for others to pick up if it gets dropped by the develper?

I want to buy in the next couple of weeks, and this is what is on my mind....
 
Back
Top