Humidifier Questions

[broconne]

In the stages of pricing out a new build, which will I am attempting to pre-wire for as much HA as possible. One item I was looking to add was a humidifier control. This house is semi-custom (I sometimes wonder if I should just start a build thread - rather than keep starting new threads for each topic) and they have an option for a humidifier.

The will install a Skuttle 592-22 for only 4 times the cost. Here is the URL for the humidifier: http://www.ontimemall.com/592-22%20owners%20manual.pdf

Which seems to come with a seriously ugly Humidistat. It seems you can have the humidstat on either the air return or they can mount it on the wall. What I would prefer to do is to install this sensor: http://www.datanab.com/sensors/Mbus_RTH.htm (or one like it) in the living area and have Elk/CQC turn on the humidifier as needed.

Questions are:
(1) Is that a good plan in general (Elk turning the humidifier on)
(2) Has anyone had one of these installed after the HVAC is installed? Any reason I shouldn't wait and not pay 4x the cost?
(3) Anyone controlled the Skuttle or is the a better one I should get as a NSO (Non Standard Option)?

 

[123]

I installed a Desert Spring humidifier and I'm pleased with its performance. It doesn't waste water, the disks work properly even when coated with mineral deposits, and the deposits can be easily removed by soaking in a product like Jelmar's CLR. You can add a timed valve option that periodically dumps the standing water to prevent the buildup of mold (I've never encountered that problem). I never used the included humidistat (also unattractive) and have it operated by a Robertshaw thermostat/humidistat (similar to this one).

 

[felixrosbergen]

Just 2 notes of caution on humidifiers....
1) alergens love humid environments....
2) I work with professional MEP engineers quite a bit (these guys do massive buildings like airports and hospitals) and they say there is no perceivable difference to the human between the 30% and 70% RH range. It could be 35-60...but around there.... in any case....if you're under that range you may sense improvement...but if you're already in that range you're just wasting money and resources with a humidifier.... I noticed this when they determine target environmental parameters for these buildings and they have narrow temperature range but huge humidty ranges.

 

[dutchyn]

I bought an Omnistat RC-2000, which has humidifier/dehumidifier control lines. I don't know how the ELK might communicate humidity requests and get humidity status, but at least the thermostat will monitor it. I expect that there's some ASCII string I can send (just like the one to display a message on the thermostat LCD) that will retrieve and adjust humidity.

Chris D.

 

[nov0798]

My system (Carrier Infinity) uses a built in control on the board, with an external relay that controls the on/off of the humidifier. Maybe you can have the ELK monitor a humidity sensor and then write a rule to close a relay which turns it on/off.
Just an idea.

 

[nsisman]

Just 2 notes of caution on humidifiers....
1) alergens love humid environments....
2) I work with professional MEP engineers quite a bit (these guys do massive buildings like airports and hospitals) and they say there is no perceivable difference to the human between the 30% and 70% RH range. It could be 35-60...but around there.... in any case....if you're under that range you may sense improvement...but if you're already in that range you're just wasting money and resources with a humidifier.... I noticed this when they determine target environmental parameters for these buildings and they have narrow temperature range but huge humidty ranges.

I completely disagree !

Not to rain on your parade but send your MEP engineers up here to my hot water heated radiator equipped 1950 built boiler equipped bungalow and they will soon discover the difference between 30% and 70% humidity.

After about 3 days at 30% they will be pulling dead skin off the insides of their nasal passages and coughing a lot and rubbing their eyes.

After a few years of stick furniture falling apart at the glue joints and mitered wood trim joints pulling apart and stairs creaking they will know the difference between 30% and 70%.


I run two portables thru the heating season and couldn't even consider doing without them.

Just my opinion of course - everyone has their own ideas.

 

[aehusted]

I installed an older version of this Aprilaire model in my current and last house. It is linked to my 8570 stat and the external temp sensor that comes with it. The purpose of the outdoor temp sensor is so the system can keep the humidity from getting too high and causing condensation problems. I am really quite happy with it. I also like the fact that all the water gets used rather than just bleeding through extra like some systems.

As someone with chronic sinus issues, I also have to disagree with the 30-70 comment. nsisman also has an excellent point about the wood furniture problems. While moisture is the friend of mold and mites, there are plenty of other ways to manage these. Start by getting a decent pleated filter for your furnace.

In the stages of pricing out a new build, which will I am attempting to pre-wire for as much HA as possible. One item I was looking to add was a humidifier control. This house is semi-custom (I sometimes wonder if I should just start a build thread - rather than keep starting new threads for each topic) and they have an option for a humidifier.

The will install a Skuttle 592-22 for only 4 times the cost. Here is the URL for the humidifier: http://www.ontimemall.com/592-22%20owners%20manual.pdf

Which seems to come with a seriously ugly Humidistat. It seems you can have the humidstat on either the air return or they can mount it on the wall. What I would prefer to do is to install this sensor: http://www.datanab.com/sensors/Mbus_RTH.htm (or one like it) in the living area and have Elk/CQC turn on the humidifier as needed.

Questions are:
(1) Is that a good plan in general (Elk turning the humidifier on)
(2) Has anyone had one of these installed after the HVAC is installed? Any reason I shouldn't wait and not pay 4x the cost?
(3) Anyone controlled the Skuttle or is the a better one I should get as a NSO (Non Standard Option)?

 

[broconne]

I appreciate everyones input on the humidifier questions here.

For those who installed or retrofitted a humidifier was it difficult?

Also - for those who have done it, is it better to control the humdifier with an elk or with a built in humidistat?

 

[felixrosbergen]

This is interesting...i'll try to follow up with them...i spoke to them about residential context....but they mainly does in large scale commercial/public buildings....maybe it's not an issue there because people don't live there for that many days in a row...although i would expect staff to complain...

Also the work they do is almost always remote heat/codl generation with hot/chilled water distribution through pipes and then air handlers..

I'll try to check up with them and post an update...

Just 2 notes of caution on humidifiers....
1) alergens love humid environments....
2) I work with professional MEP engineers quite a bit (these guys do massive buildings like airports and hospitals) and they say there is no perceivable difference to the human between the 30% and 70% RH range. It could be 35-60...but around there.... in any case....if you're under that range you may sense improvement...but if you're already in that range you're just wasting money and resources with a humidifier.... I noticed this when they determine target environmental parameters for these buildings and they have narrow temperature range but huge humidty ranges.

I completely disagree !

Not to rain on your parade but send your MEP engineers up here to my hot water heated radiator equipped 1950 built boiler equipped bungalow and they will soon discover the difference between 30% and 70% humidity.

After about 3 days at 30% they will be pulling dead skin off the insides of their nasal passages and coughing a lot and rubbing their eyes.

After a few years of stick furniture falling apart at the glue joints and mitered wood trim joints pulling apart and stairs creaking they will know the difference between 30% and 70%.


I run two portables thru the heating season and couldn't even consider doing without them.

Just my opinion of course - everyone has their own ideas.

 

[sic0048]

I don't have a humidifier in my house. It doesn't seem uncomfortable to me, but we probably should look into one. The crown molding in the kitchen always shrinks enough that to produces a crack between it and the drywall all around the room. As soon as the humidity increases, the wood swells and the crack disappears. So clearly there is a difference between winter and summer in my house. I think in the winter it is about 40-50% humidity as measured by an inside weather station (don't know how accurate it is).

They also say that a dry house will feel colder because of the lack of humidity. So increasing humidity might allow you to turn the thermostat down a degree or two and save some $$.

 

[aehusted]

Retrofitting mine (linked above) was not such a big hassle.
- run some wires to the stat, furnace, humidifier control and outdoor sensor.
- Connect to a nearby hot water pipe using a saddle valve.
- cut into the ducts and mount everything
- run a drain line to the condensation pump
- wire a transformer to a nearby junction box to power everything

with the right tools it is pretty simple.

I appreciate everyones input on the humidifier questions here.

For those who installed or retrofitted a humidifier was it difficult?

Also - for those who have done it, is it better to control the humdifier with an elk or with a built in humidistat?

 

[drozwood90]

Why did you do the hot water line? According to the install video for the Desert Spring humidifier, it said to use the cold water line.

Better results?

 

[Neurorad]

Humidity plays a big part in how cold or warm the air feels, at a given temperature.

High humidity promotes dust mites, possibly aggravating allergies.

Target humidity, IMO, should be 30-50%.

 

[Madcodger]

I conducted a semi-scientific experiment a few years ago using some Oregon Scientific humidity sensors. We allowed the humidity in the house to drop below 30% for a few days after hearing about a friend who had mold problems one winter. I monitored it with the OS sensors, and we got down to the mid-20% range during a cold spell here in PA. Sure enough, dry nasal passages, dry coughs, creaking furniture, etc., started to occur within just a couple of days. We then turned the humidifiers back on, and life returned to normal. I try for 40 - 60%, and it's fairly difficult to get our house above that during the winter, I've found. It has to be a set of wet, warm days during winter for it to happen here. And we later found out that our friend had a serious malfunction in what sounded like an improperly installed attic heating system.

Our problem has been with getting our Aprilaire furnace humidifier (uses a pad that has to be replaced every year, and the HVAC guy tells me Aprilaire doesn't make a larger version) to put out anything close to enough humidity. We have to run an extra portable on each floor to keep things in the 40% + range. Does anyone have experience with switching out an Aprilaire for another brand due to poor performance of the Aprilaire unit? I'd really like to get rid of these portables.

 

[123]

I had a Carrier "fountain-style" humidifier, that's where a constant stream of water pours over a vertical pad and flows out into drain. I found it to be minimally effective for humidifying 2500 sq. ft. Could be because I tried to reduce the flow to a trickle after calculating how much water it wastes! The Desert Spring humidifier does a fine job of keeping humidity around 35%. Plus there's nothing to replace or discard. I rinse the reservoir out 1-2 times per month and clean the disks at the of the season.

You can buy their timed valve (periodically dumps the reservoir water) or attach some other kind of electrically controlled valve and have your M1 do it (one of my future projects).