I know it's been discussed 1000 times, Omni or Elk

[IVB]

Geez, and now the CTO of HAI is here?

Man, electron, your eminence is growing, and I am so hot for you right now.

(ok, just kidding, but seriously, having reps from two major companies is a great thing. A little competition for who has the better support is always good.)

(ok, just kidding about being just kidding - I think I really am hot for you. That whole Prop8 thing must be rubbing off on me )

 

[Steve]

Yes Charlie, you are right. Historically a large factor in the Elk vs HAI debate has always been support with Elk being very proactive and HAI being, well, absent. I think that drove alot of people toward Elk. I'm happy to see HAI 'coming out of the closet' and I'm sure their presence here will be mutually rewarding for themselves and customers.

With the support issue perhaps being leveled out, it indeed them comes down to a more technical decision on the products themselves. So now the decision becomes that much more painful because IMHO both of them are excellent systems. Like any competitors in a technical market I'm sure they will play leapfrog with one another where one year Elk comes out with those 'must have' features and then the next perhaps HAI matching them and coming out with new ones (and vice versa).

I don't envy your decision as its a tough one that has seemingly now become even tougher. Perhaps it will help to build a spreadsheet and list your Musts and Wants and build a comparison between the two, maybe you will find something that sways the decision one way or another. It also may help to talk to an unbiased vendor perhaps like Automated Outlet that has also proven their worth with support. They sell, support and have expertise in both so maybe they can help make your decision.

Whichever direction you go I'm sure it will be a great system - good luck with choice.

Oh - I wanted to comment on the UPB issue. I'm sure pretty much any issue you read about regarding UPB will be more of a UPB switch mfg or protocol (like environmental) issue. While HAI may have tighter integration with their switches I don't think there are any issues with Elk and UPB. And Upstart is a free, easy and powerful tool so I would not necessarily lean one direction or another based simply on your choice of UPB. And since UPB is standard, you can use any brand UPB switch on any system, don't feel like you have to use HAI UPB switches with an OP although you may very well like that choice.

 

[fcwilt]

It seems that HAI has a reputation as being unfriendly to DIYers, but nothing could be farther from the truth.

>Find Retail Distribution
>(for Self-Installers)
>
>HAI recognizes that some customers would prefer to buy our product for self-installation.
>
>HAI product is available from our Retail distributors, who offer buying advice, technical support and credit card terms to retail buyers.
>
>Please note that technical support, warranty and repair service for retail buyers is provided by the Retail Distribution Partner.

I think it is this sort of statement (taken from the HAI web site) that may give folks the impression that DIYers are not entirely welcome at HAI.

 

[Lagerhead]

It seems that HAI has a reputation as being unfriendly to DIYers, but nothing could be farther from the truth.

>Find Retail Distribution
>(for Self-Installers)
>
>HAI recognizes that some customers would prefer to buy our product for self-installation.
>
>HAI product is available from our Retail distributors, who offer buying advice, technical support and credit card terms to retail buyers.
>
>Please note that technical support, warranty and repair service for retail buyers is provided by the Retail Distribution Partner.

I think it is this sort of statement (taken from the HAI web site) that may give folks the impression that DIYers are not entirely welcome at HAI.

It was an issue for me. The Omni website description says, "HAI Omni home control systems are designed for professional installation. The licensing requirements for their installation vary by state because Omni systems have built-in security." "Professional installation" was (is) in bold, and was enough to scare me off. I bought an Elk M1G.

 

[ano]

Wow, I'm very happy to have more HAI representation here. I think that is a great move. For me, its not so much about being able to ask questions, although, I think that is important, its more about getting a better channel so that HAI can get feedback from users. Remember, I am the one that said HAI has always been willing to help DIYers, and from my experience, that is true, but I never have felt that HAI really was big on listening to users, outside of its network of professional installers. Certainly communicating with installers is important, but I think there needs to be more listening to users like the ones on this board.

For example, for professional installers, maybe this wasn't a big issue, but for the type of user on Coontech, a big part of a home automation panel is connecting it to a PC running a program like CQC or Homeseer. In fact its EXTREMELY important to me, yet HAI used an old polling protocol that made it very hard for outside systems to extract data from the panel. As of the very latest 2.16 firmware, that was addressed, but there are still problems, and today, CQC does support it, but it has some bugs, and Homeseer still connects over a serial port using the old protocol because Rick at Homeseer and HAI can never communicate enough to fully understand the needs of each other's systems. Whatever the reason for these problems, ME, Joe the User is stuck with these problems. I think if problems like this get communicated to HAI from users like us, then solutions will come, but only if they are listening.

Again, thanks for listening, HAI, and I think that you won't regret it.

 

[aard3]

Charlie,

I agree with Steve that you should definitely purchase the product that best suits your needs. I've personally always been a strong believer in purchasing something not based on features, but on the benefits I get from those features, and the over all solution they provide me.

Frederick,

We don't sell directly to customers (or dealers), they need to purchase products through a distributor. Which we happily list on our website. Technical support, warranty and repair service is provided by the Retail partner, or your dealer if it was professionally installed...and that's great for the customer. If you purchase something from vendor X, or dealer Y, you should be able to go back to them about it if it doesn't work correctly!

That said, it doesn't say that we won't help homeowners with issues, quite the opposite in fact. Our technical support department will help anyone that calls, and I think our presence here speaks for itself now. I'll mention the wording to the webmaster.

Lagerhead,

It's true that depending on your state, and in order to have your system monitored, you might need to have the system professionally installed. I'm not an expert on the different regulations regarding this (I don't install systems for a living), so it's hard for me to speak on this. I'm sorry it scared you off.

ano,

Thanks. Of course listening to installer is important, but so is listening to the homeowners wife...as many of you here have learned! Myself and other HAI employees have always lurked on the forums to see what people have wanted.

We recognize that different people have different needs, and we would like to make everyone happy, but sometimes it's just not possible. Everything has to be put on the schedule, and it takes time. I personally wrote the new protocol in 2.16, with the exact purpose of making it easier to integrate with us. We recognized the old polling protocol was an issue, and we've taken steps to fix it. I've personally talked with Dean @ CQC to get things going, which he did. In the upcoming 3.0 release, there are a few minor fixes, and even more enchantments to the protocol. We have a new .NET SDK that implements both protocols that will be given away to developers shortly, and both Dean and Rick are welcome to use it if they can. (I personally don't know what Rick's issue(s) are, but he's welcome to contact me if it helps.)

Thanks for the feedback,


Thanks,

 

[sic0048]

Geez, and now the CTO of HAI is here?

Man, electron, your eminence is growing, and I am so hot for you right now.

(ok, just kidding, but seriously, having reps from two major companies is a great thing. A little competition for who has the better support is always good.)

(ok, just kidding about being just kidding - I think I really am hot for you. That whole Prop8 thing must be rubbing off on me )

Geez IVB - are you drinking already today, or is work just that stressful?

 

[Gduncan]

Based upon today's comments, the HAI website portion for How to Buy has been cleaned up.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Traditionally Cocoontech has been viewed by myself and others as sort of a "hostile enviroment" for HAI... I'd like to change that.

Aaron;

I have attend CES in Las Vegas on a regular basis for many years. When CocoonTech was in its infancy HAI wanted nothing to do with my inquiries and would literally stop speaking to me once a "recognized" dealer would enter the booth.

It wasn't until the last couple of CES shows that I would get some good feedback to enable reviews on HAI products. I see this as HAI now recognizing CocoonTech's influential role in the home automation industry as our popularity and vendor recognition has grown substantially.

When I asked about the components and products being available to DIY types, the answer was NO, it's available to dealers only.

As far as CocoonTech being "hostile" to HAI, that really doesn't make sense and I can even reference you to not one, but TWO detailed reviews on your products from past CES shows:


REVIEW ONE

REVIEW TWO

I should attend this upcoming CES in January and look forward to once again, visiting the HAI booth.

Regards,

BSR

 

[aard3]

Traditionally Cocoontech has been viewed by myself and others as sort of a "hostile enviroment" for HAI... I'd like to change that.

Aaron;

I have attend CES in Las Vegas on a regular basis for many years. When CocoonTech was in its infancy HAI wanted nothing to do with my inquiries and would literally stop speaking to me once a "recognized" dealer would enter the booth.

It wasn't until the last couple of CES shows that I would get some good feedback to enable reviews on HAI products. I see this as HAI now recognizing CocoonTech's influential role in the home automation industry as our popularity and vendor recognition has grown substantially.

When I asked about the components and products being available to DIY types, the answer was NO, it's available to dealers only.

As far as CocoonTech being "hostile" to HAI, that really doesn't make sense and I can even reference you to not one, but TWO detailed reviews on your products from past CES shows:


REVIEW ONE

REVIEW TWO

I should attend this upcoming CES in January and look forward to once again, visiting the HAI booth.

Regards,

BSR

BSR,

I'm sorry your had a bad experience at the HAI booth. I'm not trying to defend whatever happened, because I don't have any first hand knowledge of the situation, but I can tell you this from experience. Working the booth at CES is pretty stressful, and there are a lot of people that want to talk to you. It's very hard to try to make sure every gets the questions answered, I know when I am in the booth, all technical questions get forwarded to me, and I'll literally have a line of people waiting to ask something. It's hard to try to make sure everyone gets their time and doesn't feel shorted.

When I said Cocoontech was a "hostile" environment, I was referring to the fact that the majority of posts aren't HAI related. I wasn't implying that Cocoontech the website was, I appreciate the reviews of our products, perhaps it was poor wording.


That said, I'll be at CES this year (arrive 1-7, depart 1-10). I try my best to be in the booth, but I also try to see the show. If you get there and I'm not there, ask someone to call me. I'll be happy to spend some time with you and show you everything HAI brings.

Thanks,

 

[fleetz]

Hi Charlibarn,

I was in your position over 3 years ago,,,,which one ELK M1 or HAI Omni. At the time I searched the mine field of info to determine which one was going in my new house I was about to build. I can only speak about my experience at the time and after my decision. At the end of the day it comes down to your requiements, budget and product support.

Firstly I felt I couldn't have made a bad choice both products were very mature. I looked at the offerings at the time and compared the costs and the ELK for me in MY application (48 zones and 48 outputs) M1 hit the sweet spot from a price verses feature perspective. I found the configuration and system expansion on the ELK M1 easier to get my head around.

Before any purchase like this I went looking for support for the product as I was a DIYer and totally new to HA, this was important as if HAI had better support than ELK at the level of support I required indeed needed to intregrate I would go which ever had the best DIY support. I discovered the Cocoontech forum and found a strong M1 community which I was welcomed in and couldn't find an equivalent for HAI. Again my experience only I felt HAI were at that time not able to offer what I was looking from a support perspective, I am not commenting on technical support but from a DIYer's perspective.

The CocoonTech forum solidified my decision to go M1, it happened to be the my preferred platform from my prelimenary comparision so I was happy to make the call to go ELK M1. I have to say now I have fully integrated the M1 system I am very happy with the outcome. I did take a punt a bit on the touchscreen as David Steele aka Spanky the ELK CTO was talking about it's introduction of the TS-07 so I needed to feel comfortable that it was going to be a reality. Through the forum and Spanky's feedback I was comfortable that the TS-07 was going to be available in time for my build. I agree the price was a little steep but again the whole system price still favoured the M1.

Post my decision to go M1 has seen a lot of development by ELK (and no doubt HAI), which has been great as I been able to utilise new features and peripherials that have come through to the market. More still working there way through ELKRMS and iPhone support. The ELKRMS sounds like a timely release and will enable us to customise our TS-07 as we want not locked down. I like the fact the RP ELK's programming tool was free.....from what I read now it seems HAI is too, it wasn't when I was looking at the two systems.

3 plus years from having made my decision to go M1 I have not regretted it. The system was nice to install with no surprises really and with CocoonTech members always there I felt that if I had issues integration hurdles the level of serious knowledge base of the M1 platform is second to none! Here on CocoonTech Spanky also provides the level of manufacturer support that makes you feel you are directly connect to the ELK mothership and hops in with timely information relating to any M1 topic that may have stalled. Spanky has over 2000 posts in support of ELK products over many years, quite exceptional. I believe also that active members using M1 have help guide the ELK development path and ultimately release to the market which is reallynice. The only one we have not swaded him on yet is their temperature sensors which are a bit thin in their offering.

Bottomline I don't think you could make a bad decision based on the two you are looking at and what you are looking to achieve, you will find a pro M1 bias here on this forum as you will support and an exceptional M1 knowledge and user base.

HAI have only just appeared in the forum after many years with no or little forum visibility....interesting timing!

Goodluck with your decision.

Regards,

Fleetz

 

[sic0048]

HAI have only just appeared in the forum after many years with no or little forum visibility....interesting timing!

Hey, times are tough everywhere. Every customer counts right now.

(This is said in jest......well maybe not if you look at my portfolio right now).

 

[icellama21]

As far as touchscreens are concerned, you don't need to buy the TS07 to run elkRM(unless you are an installer and extra config time is worth hundreds of dollars). If anything Elk has done a great job of making their touchscreen obsolete by making elkRM so easy to install.

For 1/3-1/2 of the cost of the TS07 you can get a better windows CE, Windows mobile or XP-embedded unit and install elkRM yourself. If you pick a more powerful XP/XP-embedded touchscreen you will also future-proof your system for computer-automation software(CQC, homeseer, etc). Windows Mobile devices(if they are VGA compatible and support the min-resolution) make great roving mobile controls.

 

[fleetz]

I agree with your comments it finding units with the form factor of the TS-07 that makes it a little more differcult..

As far as touchscreens are concerned, you don't need to buy the TS07 to run elkRM(unless you are an installer and extra config time is worth hundreds of dollars). If anything Elk has done a great job of making their touchscreen obsolete by making elkRM so easy to install.

For 1/3-1/2 of the cost of the TS07 you can get a better windows CE, Windows mobile or XP-embedded unit and install elkRM yourself. If you pick a more powerful XP/XP-embedded touchscreen you will also future-proof your system for computer-automation software(CQC, homeseer, etc). Windows Mobile devices(if they are VGA compatible and support the min-resolution) make great roving mobile controls.

 

[fleetz]

Hmmm I thought it might have something to do with tough times too.....

HAI have only just appeared in the forum after many years with no or little forum visibility....interesting timing!

Hey, times are tough everywhere. Every customer counts right now.

(This is said in jest......well maybe not if you look at my portfolio right now).