Image sensor for ELK?
- Thread starter JNA
- Start date
doubtful. You're talking a huge amount of data to be moved in order for something like that to work natively, so the option is to have it go with wifi for the images to whatever internet is at your place....which would become a huge nightmare for support .
Don't see the attraction for the development of that sort of device.
Don't see the attraction for the development of that sort of device.
DEL you seem to be misunderstanding what I am describing. At least two companies already produce such an item, Videofied and Alarm.com. The Alarm.com image sensor seems to be badge engineered by 2Gig and Qolsys and there may well be other companies doing so if their systems operate on the alarm.com monitoring system. The attraction for these devices is to provide video verification of an alarm event in police jurisdictions that require verification. Links to the sensors below:
https://2gig.com/products/peripherals/image-sensors/
https://www.videofied.com/us/en/products/indoor_motionviewer_-_imv601/
The amount of data is actually relatively small because the image is also only QVGA resolution and the information is only sent in the event the PIR is triggered when the system is armed, this is not surveillance monitoring. The low resolution in these detectors is intentional because the primary purpose is just to confirm the presence of a person in a place they shouldn't be and not necessarily to identify them, although the image or video clip may well be capable of doing that after the event. The image or video clip are sent through to the central station via the panel communications for verification of the alarm. From the Videofied data sheet a typical short video clip may only be 220 kilobytes while a snapshot image would be 8 kilobytes. Note the data sheet units actually suggest these are kilobits not kilobytes but I suspect that may be a typo.
To reiterate what I've said in other threads, it is also important that such wireless image sensors operate on a spread spectrum wireless system to avoid jamming, because detection of jamming will not result in police responding in an alarm verification jurisdiction. The spread spectrum frequency bands in the US are 902-928 MHz, 2.4-2.5 GHz and 5.8 GHz.
Videofied actively promote both encryption and spread spectrum (902-928 MHz range) for their wireless alarm systems including their image sensor as I've discussed in my other threads.
The Alarm.com sensor is more difficult to tie down as to whether it uses spread spectrum. It requires a 900MHz transceiver so both 2Gig and Qolsys have panel upgrade modules to specifically support this. The only mention I have found for 2Gig spread spectrum was for a broadband communication link for 2Gig GC2 panels https://2gig.com/products/peripherals/gobridge-ip-communicator/ so it seems that the GC2 may have supported it but the GC3 may not. It would be nice to know if the GC3 panel does support this spread spectrum communications for their image sensor as there seems to be some incompatibility between the two panels.
https://2gig.com/products/peripherals/image-sensors/
https://www.videofied.com/us/en/products/indoor_motionviewer_-_imv601/
The amount of data is actually relatively small because the image is also only QVGA resolution and the information is only sent in the event the PIR is triggered when the system is armed, this is not surveillance monitoring. The low resolution in these detectors is intentional because the primary purpose is just to confirm the presence of a person in a place they shouldn't be and not necessarily to identify them, although the image or video clip may well be capable of doing that after the event. The image or video clip are sent through to the central station via the panel communications for verification of the alarm. From the Videofied data sheet a typical short video clip may only be 220 kilobytes while a snapshot image would be 8 kilobytes. Note the data sheet units actually suggest these are kilobits not kilobytes but I suspect that may be a typo.
To reiterate what I've said in other threads, it is also important that such wireless image sensors operate on a spread spectrum wireless system to avoid jamming, because detection of jamming will not result in police responding in an alarm verification jurisdiction. The spread spectrum frequency bands in the US are 902-928 MHz, 2.4-2.5 GHz and 5.8 GHz.
Videofied actively promote both encryption and spread spectrum (902-928 MHz range) for their wireless alarm systems including their image sensor as I've discussed in my other threads.
The Alarm.com sensor is more difficult to tie down as to whether it uses spread spectrum. It requires a 900MHz transceiver so both 2Gig and Qolsys have panel upgrade modules to specifically support this. The only mention I have found for 2Gig spread spectrum was for a broadband communication link for 2Gig GC2 panels https://2gig.com/products/peripherals/gobridge-ip-communicator/ so it seems that the GC2 may have supported it but the GC3 may not. It would be nice to know if the GC3 panel does support this spread spectrum communications for their image sensor as there seems to be some incompatibility between the two panels.
The point being, why would Elk engineer something that is already on the market through third party channels? It's a limited market and model...you need to provide either an always-on internet connection or cell connection, and Elk not in the market for either (the C1M1 is an exception through Telular). The RMR for them and dealers just isn't there for a limited market desiring the products when the bolt on solution exists....hell Elk has barely done much to the M1 platform since it came to market about 13 years ago. (I'm still waiting for multiple 2 wire fire zones with current detectors or addressable smoke detector connections for industry standard products).
I'm also Videofied dealer.
The resolution, FPS and interval between key frames are all what is throttled, significantly throttled and held back, 5FPS or less. The main item is the key frame interval on the product. That's how they're saving data and compressing the video further.
Don't forget the facts, 2Gig is mass market product, primarily financed by Vivint (fact) and their name comes from their engineering (2 Guys in garage-ex Honeywell guys, think it was a coincidence the product supports 5800 series?)
I'm also Videofied dealer.
The resolution, FPS and interval between key frames are all what is throttled, significantly throttled and held back, 5FPS or less. The main item is the key frame interval on the product. That's how they're saving data and compressing the video further.
Don't forget the facts, 2Gig is mass market product, primarily financed by Vivint (fact) and their name comes from their engineering (2 Guys in garage-ex Honeywell guys, think it was a coincidence the product supports 5800 series?)
Well ELK might want to engineer or otherwise get a solution for video verification if they haven't already because its not the limited market you seem to think it is. From this list on Videofied's web site https://www.videofied.com/us/en/concept/the_benefits_of_videofied/verified_alarm_ordinancespolicies/ it seems just about every major population center in California is implementing some level of a verified alarm approach and a good many major cities in the US outside CA are as well. That is not a small market. Beyond that ELK sells worldwide so even if there wasn't a US market there might well be a need for such a solution in other parts of the world, albeit with different frequency ranges being required. And beyond all the formal statements from jurisdictions regarding verification requirements, there are the LEOs fed up to the back teeth from responding to false alarms deciding to unofficially give a low priority response to unverified alarms.
And then there is the response time. Even when a jurisdiction doesn't mandate verification, central monitoring stations may well try two phone calls before notifying police adding delay to the response. With video verification there is no need to check for false alarms. If they see a person in an image or video clip and if the alarm hasn't been manually cancelled then they can assume its a valid alarm and notify police of a burglary or some other crime in progress which will drive a higher priority/faster response from the police.
As to communications. How many new residential systems are going to be using POTs? New systems are going to be using telco, cable, cellular or a combination of 2-from-3 for dual path, i.e. always on internet. Which is probably why ELK decided to offer the Telguard C1M1 solution, because they could see the writing on the wall for POTs going away for many potential residential customers who wouldn't want to pay for POTs just for alarm use.
Everything you say about Videofied is confirmed in their data sheet and entirely consistent with the function of their image sensor. So I'm wondering why in your second post on this thread you suggested that what I was asking about was impractical for anyone? As a Videofied dealer I would have thought what I was describing would jump out as being exactly what they make?
I'm not sure what your point is about 2Gig? I'm not advocating for any manufacturer at this stage. I'm simply referencing them, and more specifically Alarm.com along with Videofied as producing the type of sensor that addresses the need for video verification.
The only other video verification solution I am aware of at present is when the central monitoring station uses the iView Now software solution in conjunction with software like Honeywell's Total Connect 2.0. This solution leverages the presence of surveillance cameras, either directly on the premises network or via a DVR on the premises network, to tie a video clip from said cameras to an alarm event. However, I am not aware of anyone yet offering this service for DIY installations, I started a thread about this a while back. This would actually be my preferred solution versus image sensors. I have also only found one online source for DIY'ers so far which both sells the Videofied hardware and offers the central station monitoring to go along with it which is why I have reservations about committing to that path.
And then there is the response time. Even when a jurisdiction doesn't mandate verification, central monitoring stations may well try two phone calls before notifying police adding delay to the response. With video verification there is no need to check for false alarms. If they see a person in an image or video clip and if the alarm hasn't been manually cancelled then they can assume its a valid alarm and notify police of a burglary or some other crime in progress which will drive a higher priority/faster response from the police.
As to communications. How many new residential systems are going to be using POTs? New systems are going to be using telco, cable, cellular or a combination of 2-from-3 for dual path, i.e. always on internet. Which is probably why ELK decided to offer the Telguard C1M1 solution, because they could see the writing on the wall for POTs going away for many potential residential customers who wouldn't want to pay for POTs just for alarm use.
Everything you say about Videofied is confirmed in their data sheet and entirely consistent with the function of their image sensor. So I'm wondering why in your second post on this thread you suggested that what I was asking about was impractical for anyone? As a Videofied dealer I would have thought what I was describing would jump out as being exactly what they make?
I'm not sure what your point is about 2Gig? I'm not advocating for any manufacturer at this stage. I'm simply referencing them, and more specifically Alarm.com along with Videofied as producing the type of sensor that addresses the need for video verification.
The only other video verification solution I am aware of at present is when the central monitoring station uses the iView Now software solution in conjunction with software like Honeywell's Total Connect 2.0. This solution leverages the presence of surveillance cameras, either directly on the premises network or via a DVR on the premises network, to tie a video clip from said cameras to an alarm event. However, I am not aware of anyone yet offering this service for DIY installations, I started a thread about this a while back. This would actually be my preferred solution versus image sensors. I have also only found one online source for DIY'ers so far which both sells the Videofied hardware and offers the central station monitoring to go along with it which is why I have reservations about committing to that path.
BraveSirRobbin
Moderator
JNA: I am 100% in agreement with you. This is something highly desirable, especially for the DIY that lives in a city where the police will NOT respond to any type of alarm from a burglar panel UNLESS there is 'verified' evidence that the perpetrator is actually in the residence (either video evidence or an actual person verifying).
I had an Elk panel when living in Las Vegas and looked into some type of video verification that I could send to my central monitoring company (Alarm Monitoring Services). This CS was currently monitoring my Elk via Ethernet. Again, I found out that Las Vegas Metro would NOT respond to any CS notification of a burglar indication from an alarm panel unless you had video verification or the CS had people respond to the residence.
This is a huge problem for the DIY as it forces you to go with the expensive monitoring services (that respond with their own people). I tried finding a solution using VideoFied (refer to post below):
http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/26453-does-anyone-have-experience-with-telguardvideofied-v2h-monitoring-kits/?hl=%2Bvideofied#entry212937
A lot of two letter acronyms thrown around, but no solution. Of course this was three years ago, but I doubt much progress in terms of a DIY solution has advanced since then.
I resorted to a 'home brewed' solution of using Axis cameras that were installed in the interior of my residence that would turn on during an alarm (from the Elk panel) via the relay panel interface. Then, the Axis cameras would upload images on any motion to my FTP site. I had a program (by Dan/electron) that would create large thumbnails of these images. I created a domain and had a link to these thumbnails. I then had this link as part of my alarm notification with Alarm Monitoring Services.
So, on any alarm, the CS would simply click on the link and see if anyone was on the premises. They would then call Las Vegas Metro with the words "we have verification that a crime is in progress".
Was this a system I would recommend as an optimal solution for the DIY? Absolutely not. Was this a solution that worked for me? Yes, and we tested this routinely.
I thought I was on an island with my initial request to interface this capability with the Elk due to the lack of replies to my original thread three years ago. I'm sure you could count on one hand the number of Elk installs in Las Vegas at that time.
If Elk doesn't come up with an integrated solution, I feel more DIY types will look into the 2Gig or other products that offer this capability. I'm sure more and more cities will follow suite with Las Vegas on not responding to alarm panel notifications without video verification. CS companies that offer armed responses are just to expensive and don't want to monitor a DIY install.
Good luck with your search, and I'm glad someone else on this board is looking into a solution for this!
I had an Elk panel when living in Las Vegas and looked into some type of video verification that I could send to my central monitoring company (Alarm Monitoring Services). This CS was currently monitoring my Elk via Ethernet. Again, I found out that Las Vegas Metro would NOT respond to any CS notification of a burglar indication from an alarm panel unless you had video verification or the CS had people respond to the residence.
This is a huge problem for the DIY as it forces you to go with the expensive monitoring services (that respond with their own people). I tried finding a solution using VideoFied (refer to post below):
http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/26453-does-anyone-have-experience-with-telguardvideofied-v2h-monitoring-kits/?hl=%2Bvideofied#entry212937
A lot of two letter acronyms thrown around, but no solution. Of course this was three years ago, but I doubt much progress in terms of a DIY solution has advanced since then.
I resorted to a 'home brewed' solution of using Axis cameras that were installed in the interior of my residence that would turn on during an alarm (from the Elk panel) via the relay panel interface. Then, the Axis cameras would upload images on any motion to my FTP site. I had a program (by Dan/electron) that would create large thumbnails of these images. I created a domain and had a link to these thumbnails. I then had this link as part of my alarm notification with Alarm Monitoring Services.
So, on any alarm, the CS would simply click on the link and see if anyone was on the premises. They would then call Las Vegas Metro with the words "we have verification that a crime is in progress".
Was this a system I would recommend as an optimal solution for the DIY? Absolutely not. Was this a solution that worked for me? Yes, and we tested this routinely.
I thought I was on an island with my initial request to interface this capability with the Elk due to the lack of replies to my original thread three years ago. I'm sure you could count on one hand the number of Elk installs in Las Vegas at that time.
If Elk doesn't come up with an integrated solution, I feel more DIY types will look into the 2Gig or other products that offer this capability. I'm sure more and more cities will follow suite with Las Vegas on not responding to alarm panel notifications without video verification. CS companies that offer armed responses are just to expensive and don't want to monitor a DIY install.
Good luck with your search, and I'm glad someone else on this board is looking into a solution for this!
pete_c
Guru
Current tinkering project here is to retrofit some old Optex combo PIR / Camera devices with HD IP 2-5 MP camera boards. It is plugnplay and the Opex combos look like oversized PIRs. Well built and very modular. You cannot tell that these are cameras looking at them. Big in the EU but never really noticed them here in the US.
NextAlarm does offer video monitoring option for $4.99 a month.
The video camera configuration is all done on the Dashboard using currently monitored devices such that I do not have to do anything with the panel.
Never much paid attention to this feature and have noticed it on my NextAlarm dashboard.
NextAlarm does offer video monitoring option for $4.99 a month.
The video camera configuration is all done on the Dashboard using currently monitored devices such that I do not have to do anything with the panel.
Never much paid attention to this feature and have noticed it on my NextAlarm dashboard.
BraveSirRobbin
Moderator
You have a link to that video monitoring product Pete? I couldn't find it on a quick glance at next alarm's site.
pete_c
Guru
Looks like they package their service with their products.
NextAlarm Products
I was just doing a copy and paste from the video setup on the NextAlarm dashboard. It is more than a page long.
I was trying to shrink it down.
The configuration is very generic such that it'll probably work with any camera.
I currently have the doorbell connected to the panel via the Elk 960/930 and an Optex combo camera there.
So you get 2-3 triggers with a doorbell ringer and being on the front porch. The doorbell and PIR and video motion if you want.
I have done this with Homeseer for a few years now. Overdoing it a bit with DIY Homeseer monitoring plus CS monitoring.
The Next alarm configuration has section devoted to a for triggers such that I can trigger a picture when the doorbell rings and text myself with text and image. A CS trigger will include an image or live video. Never paid attention to the option.
The tinkering experiment is using a 38mm combo camera board with analog inputs that can connect to the analog pieces of the PIR to do a direct FTP of an image to wherever you want. Amazing now the miniaturization. I started to tinker with a 3 board stack, then a 2 board IP HD stack and now everything fits on one board (even a wireless interface, microSD card et al).
NextAlarm Products
I was just doing a copy and paste from the video setup on the NextAlarm dashboard. It is more than a page long.
I was trying to shrink it down.
The configuration is very generic such that it'll probably work with any camera.
I currently have the doorbell connected to the panel via the Elk 960/930 and an Optex combo camera there.
So you get 2-3 triggers with a doorbell ringer and being on the front porch. The doorbell and PIR and video motion if you want.
I have done this with Homeseer for a few years now. Overdoing it a bit with DIY Homeseer monitoring plus CS monitoring.
The Next alarm configuration has section devoted to a for triggers such that I can trigger a picture when the doorbell rings and text myself with text and image. A CS trigger will include an image or live video. Never paid attention to the option.
The tinkering experiment is using a 38mm combo camera board with analog inputs that can connect to the analog pieces of the PIR to do a direct FTP of an image to wherever you want. Amazing now the miniaturization. I started to tinker with a 3 board stack, then a 2 board IP HD stack and now everything fits on one board (even a wireless interface, microSD card et al).
BraveSirRobbin: You have my admiration regarding your Axis camera solution but that is indeed a bridge too far for me.
What also struck home for me as I delved deeper into the requirement for video verification is that any alarm sensor that is not video verified is now of little value as far as a central monitoring station reporting to authorities is concerned (excluding fire, medical and panic which don't require VV). For example I have wired contact switches on my overhead garage door, my side door from outside into the garage and my door from the garage into the house. None of those tripping on their own or even collectively would result in a police response so I now need video verification in the garage. Worse still is that I have wired and wireless DualTec motion detectors covering my ground floor and upstairs, none of which would elicit a police response and forget about window or door sensors in this scenario. Of course if one is in the premises then all the conventional sensors will have value in that scenario, so I am not saying they are of no use at all.
Consequently if I need to populate the house with 8+ new image sensors or cameras at a likely cost $800-$1000+ then I want to have confidence in them, the panel they are tied to and the communications between the two.
If I default to cameras then they are going to have to be hardwired with PoE due to power requirements so no jamming/interception issue there provided the network and associated hardware is robust enough, not necessarily a given nowadays based on the lack of security in some cameras and routers. The advantage with this approach is that the cameras can generate multiple video/image streams to support high resolution for surveillance and low resolution low frame rate for video verification. However, as discussed previously there doesn't appear to be any off the shelf DIY solution yet to support camera use for video verification, so this only works for some future scenario when that becomes the case.
If using image sensors then in my view they need to support spread spectrum and encryption, hence the request about ELK supporting one. The Videofied sensors clearly do both. My investigation on the Alarm.com image sensors used by 2GIG, Qolsys and others on the Alarm.com ecosystem suggests they use 902 MHz - 928 MHz ISM band direct sequence (as opposed to frequency hopping) spread spectrum (DSSS) and 128 bit AES encryption but I would like to see that confirmed as implemented before I would consider committing. My analysis is based on the FCC test data for a recent Alarm.com image sensor https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=Y&application_id=3pgCrErozVjVgpgukKTx%2Bw%3D%3D&fcc_id=YL6-143IS300 where internal pictures show an Atmel ATRF212B transceiver chip that is capable of both DSSS and 128 bit AES encryption https://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/en/AT86RF212B. I tried to confirm the chip used in other Alarm.com image sensors and the corresponding transceivers but the picture quality was too poor on those I looked at. However the PCB layout appeared similar.
Edited to add clarification that cameras are only a future option at this time.
What also struck home for me as I delved deeper into the requirement for video verification is that any alarm sensor that is not video verified is now of little value as far as a central monitoring station reporting to authorities is concerned (excluding fire, medical and panic which don't require VV). For example I have wired contact switches on my overhead garage door, my side door from outside into the garage and my door from the garage into the house. None of those tripping on their own or even collectively would result in a police response so I now need video verification in the garage. Worse still is that I have wired and wireless DualTec motion detectors covering my ground floor and upstairs, none of which would elicit a police response and forget about window or door sensors in this scenario. Of course if one is in the premises then all the conventional sensors will have value in that scenario, so I am not saying they are of no use at all.
Consequently if I need to populate the house with 8+ new image sensors or cameras at a likely cost $800-$1000+ then I want to have confidence in them, the panel they are tied to and the communications between the two.
If I default to cameras then they are going to have to be hardwired with PoE due to power requirements so no jamming/interception issue there provided the network and associated hardware is robust enough, not necessarily a given nowadays based on the lack of security in some cameras and routers. The advantage with this approach is that the cameras can generate multiple video/image streams to support high resolution for surveillance and low resolution low frame rate for video verification. However, as discussed previously there doesn't appear to be any off the shelf DIY solution yet to support camera use for video verification, so this only works for some future scenario when that becomes the case.
If using image sensors then in my view they need to support spread spectrum and encryption, hence the request about ELK supporting one. The Videofied sensors clearly do both. My investigation on the Alarm.com image sensors used by 2GIG, Qolsys and others on the Alarm.com ecosystem suggests they use 902 MHz - 928 MHz ISM band direct sequence (as opposed to frequency hopping) spread spectrum (DSSS) and 128 bit AES encryption but I would like to see that confirmed as implemented before I would consider committing. My analysis is based on the FCC test data for a recent Alarm.com image sensor https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=Y&application_id=3pgCrErozVjVgpgukKTx%2Bw%3D%3D&fcc_id=YL6-143IS300 where internal pictures show an Atmel ATRF212B transceiver chip that is capable of both DSSS and 128 bit AES encryption https://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/en/AT86RF212B. I tried to confirm the chip used in other Alarm.com image sensors and the corresponding transceivers but the picture quality was too poor on those I looked at. However the PCB layout appeared similar.
Edited to add clarification that cameras are only a future option at this time.
I didn't point out what existed on the market because I really don't know your design criteria. If I were to go off other posts and assume security is paramount, then the most common answer from anyone within the industry would be "why are you looking at 100% wireless solutions?". It's not that dealers don't understand the technology and methodology, but it becomes a point of diminishing returns.
Alarm verification is a LE response to the market saturation of poorly designed, implemented and maintained systems, compounded by lack of minimum programming standardization (CP-01 anyone?). This has been exacerbated by the mass market installs and right now, the larger concern is the DIY marketplace that offers little control yet still wants to offer professional monitoring services. Only a matter of time before major programming options are removed or hard coded from these systems at this rate. Look at the discussions with LEO, SIA and the industry as a whole to address verification and nuisance alarms.
There are locales that require a guard response prior to dispatch (runner is the correct term). In your state, I'm sure you're already aware of Bel Air patrol and how they work with the alarm industry. ECV has been found and proven to not add significant delay in proper dispatch protocol, no worse than alarm verification.
Elk doesn't sell worldwide. They sell in NA only. The product is licensed to Ness and what they offer, sometimes Elk brings back to NA (Elkgard anyone?) The core functionality is there, however there are key differences on the embedded software side and available hardware. Also, look at the market share and targeted market for Elk and it's contemporary, HAI. Pretty small market compared to say....Honeywell, Bosch, GE, DSC, Napco, DMP.
The M1C1 was not a "progressive" product and it still isn't. It's still not available in all of the lower 48 (my area included). Don't get me wrong, I like Elk, but they've been slow to and late to the market with many products and upgrades and updates to the M1. The C1 product is a knee jerk response to the other major manufacturers having similar products on the market for YEARS, the only major difference is the C1 offers a built in XEP and dual path, but every other manufacturer has had similar on the marketplace for about 3-4 years before Elk came with theirs. Look at the Vista 21iP, which has been on the market for maybe 10 years. Embedded cellular and IP on a low tiered panel and a poor seller. DMP offers the same as optional builds on their panels.
The industry has known POTS is going out for a significant amount of time. Problem being, is what is truly replacing it as a standard within a house and subsequently, does that product offer the same level of service as POTS....the answer is going to be none, because there is no mandate to do such. Look at how the fire alarm industry is addressing it....
The manufacturers are never going to pull the plug on a panel that can support POTS until the feds mandate POTS no longer exists. They will continue to add integrated communications routing or bolt on modules, either OEM or third party. It's how it works now and how it's going to go moving forward. Illogical to go any other way.
You have to realize, the bandwidth used on these image sensors is not inconsequential, they're limited only by the core functionality itself, and there's still caveats and overage charges can be applied if the usage goes over allotted or response can also be suspended. Read the fine print.
I mentioned 2Gig and how they were subsidized and developed....by one of the worst offenders in the industry. How else can you maintain your subscriber base in areas that moved to verification, in part, due to the mass market quick install model. Add products to facilitate a greater RMR base and not erode your existing accounts.
The main point I had is you're not going to see Elk develop this, the big guys barely do. You're going to see a couple guys that have an "integrated" value added system and the bolt on, just like it is now. There's no money in it for Elk.
Alarm verification is a LE response to the market saturation of poorly designed, implemented and maintained systems, compounded by lack of minimum programming standardization (CP-01 anyone?). This has been exacerbated by the mass market installs and right now, the larger concern is the DIY marketplace that offers little control yet still wants to offer professional monitoring services. Only a matter of time before major programming options are removed or hard coded from these systems at this rate. Look at the discussions with LEO, SIA and the industry as a whole to address verification and nuisance alarms.
There are locales that require a guard response prior to dispatch (runner is the correct term). In your state, I'm sure you're already aware of Bel Air patrol and how they work with the alarm industry. ECV has been found and proven to not add significant delay in proper dispatch protocol, no worse than alarm verification.
Elk doesn't sell worldwide. They sell in NA only. The product is licensed to Ness and what they offer, sometimes Elk brings back to NA (Elkgard anyone?) The core functionality is there, however there are key differences on the embedded software side and available hardware. Also, look at the market share and targeted market for Elk and it's contemporary, HAI. Pretty small market compared to say....Honeywell, Bosch, GE, DSC, Napco, DMP.
The M1C1 was not a "progressive" product and it still isn't. It's still not available in all of the lower 48 (my area included). Don't get me wrong, I like Elk, but they've been slow to and late to the market with many products and upgrades and updates to the M1. The C1 product is a knee jerk response to the other major manufacturers having similar products on the market for YEARS, the only major difference is the C1 offers a built in XEP and dual path, but every other manufacturer has had similar on the marketplace for about 3-4 years before Elk came with theirs. Look at the Vista 21iP, which has been on the market for maybe 10 years. Embedded cellular and IP on a low tiered panel and a poor seller. DMP offers the same as optional builds on their panels.
The industry has known POTS is going out for a significant amount of time. Problem being, is what is truly replacing it as a standard within a house and subsequently, does that product offer the same level of service as POTS....the answer is going to be none, because there is no mandate to do such. Look at how the fire alarm industry is addressing it....
The manufacturers are never going to pull the plug on a panel that can support POTS until the feds mandate POTS no longer exists. They will continue to add integrated communications routing or bolt on modules, either OEM or third party. It's how it works now and how it's going to go moving forward. Illogical to go any other way.
You have to realize, the bandwidth used on these image sensors is not inconsequential, they're limited only by the core functionality itself, and there's still caveats and overage charges can be applied if the usage goes over allotted or response can also be suspended. Read the fine print.
I mentioned 2Gig and how they were subsidized and developed....by one of the worst offenders in the industry. How else can you maintain your subscriber base in areas that moved to verification, in part, due to the mass market quick install model. Add products to facilitate a greater RMR base and not erode your existing accounts.
The main point I had is you're not going to see Elk develop this, the big guys barely do. You're going to see a couple guys that have an "integrated" value added system and the bolt on, just like it is now. There's no money in it for Elk.
DEL thanks for the detailed response.
To clarify, my design criteria has come down to one of two extremes.
Regarding wireless vs wired sensors. I would much prefer wired. A combination of wired dualtec motion sensors and PoE cameras would be my preference but I haven't found anyone who is enabling video verification for DIY'ers using this approach. There are also some parts of my house that are very difficult to get a wire to without an awful lot of work and mess. I haven't ruled it out but what's the point of all the work and additional expense if the other part of the solution isn't in place. This drives me towards considering wireless sensors with all the security requirements that I have if I go down the option 1 path.
I agree as to the causes for alarm verification but we'll probably have to disagree on opinions about how it gets handled. The elegance of the San Jose police approach (from their point of view) is that it puts all the onus on the alarm companies and their customers to verify. There's no need for LE to administer permitting or fining. There's no grey area or need for explanation for how they respond if a certain sequence of alarms trips or not. An alarm is either verified or it isn't. They always have the option to respond, just not the expectation or duty to. If victims get upset by this then LE will just point them back to the alarm companies selling the inadequate monitoring service without advising customers of the limitations.
Regarding WAN communications. I doubt the feds would mandate the end of POTS so much as just allow the telcos to drop it; the current FCC seems a prime candidate for doing so. But regardless of govt, Verizon and AT&T already seem to be doing their damnedest to either price POTS out of existence or otherwise get customers off it. I don't want to be spending as much or more for POTS as I am for the alarm monitoring service. Back many years ago when I was still a real engineer designing telemetry in the UK it was the norm for telemetry and business alarms to use a low bandwidth leased line for continuous polling. Mind you data was also only using 300 baud modems.
For sure if people start using their image sensors for continual checks on non-alarm activity then even those small files will add up, particularly if they set up the sensors for higher resolution longer duration clips. Not an operational mode I will be employing but thanks for the heads up.
Re suppliers.
To clarify, my design criteria has come down to one of two extremes.
- A system that is going to ensure a police response to an alarm with all that entails in terms of equipment, communications requirements and monthly service charge.
- A baseline system, probably Vista 20P or 21iP, that delivers fire, an ability to summon help, intruder notification when I am on the premises, with minimal service cost.
Regarding wireless vs wired sensors. I would much prefer wired. A combination of wired dualtec motion sensors and PoE cameras would be my preference but I haven't found anyone who is enabling video verification for DIY'ers using this approach. There are also some parts of my house that are very difficult to get a wire to without an awful lot of work and mess. I haven't ruled it out but what's the point of all the work and additional expense if the other part of the solution isn't in place. This drives me towards considering wireless sensors with all the security requirements that I have if I go down the option 1 path.
I agree as to the causes for alarm verification but we'll probably have to disagree on opinions about how it gets handled. The elegance of the San Jose police approach (from their point of view) is that it puts all the onus on the alarm companies and their customers to verify. There's no need for LE to administer permitting or fining. There's no grey area or need for explanation for how they respond if a certain sequence of alarms trips or not. An alarm is either verified or it isn't. They always have the option to respond, just not the expectation or duty to. If victims get upset by this then LE will just point them back to the alarm companies selling the inadequate monitoring service without advising customers of the limitations.
Regarding WAN communications. I doubt the feds would mandate the end of POTS so much as just allow the telcos to drop it; the current FCC seems a prime candidate for doing so. But regardless of govt, Verizon and AT&T already seem to be doing their damnedest to either price POTS out of existence or otherwise get customers off it. I don't want to be spending as much or more for POTS as I am for the alarm monitoring service. Back many years ago when I was still a real engineer designing telemetry in the UK it was the norm for telemetry and business alarms to use a low bandwidth leased line for continuous polling. Mind you data was also only using 300 baud modems.
For sure if people start using their image sensors for continual checks on non-alarm activity then even those small files will add up, particularly if they set up the sensors for higher resolution longer duration clips. Not an operational mode I will be employing but thanks for the heads up.
Re suppliers.
- ELK either will or will not develop an image sensor, I'm not trying to persuade them, but I do think its a mistake if they don't. In any event if they don't have something ready to go now or in the imminent future then they won't be part of my short list. (And I have to observe that IMHO their keypads are some of the ugliest I have ever seen.)
- 2Gig's history doesn't concern me as much as their future. They seem to be a brand of Nortek Security & Control who are in turn now owned since August 2016 by a UK company, Melrose Industries PLC, who bought them for around $2.2B. Melrose seem to be in the business of increasing the value of companies and then selling them. From recent presentations Melrose are quite bullish on Nortek's performance with reduced debt and increased capital investment so I'm confident Nortek and 2Gig will be around for the future. Melrose recently sold Elster to Honeywell for 3.3B pounds sterling so maybe 2Gig will be yet another Honeywell acquisition in the future
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