Insteon reliability these days

[ClemsonJeeper]

Sorry, I should have clarified what I was planning.
 
I am going to be using HomeSeer as I really like HSTouch and the fact that it has plugins for just about everything.  I already have the PLM for Insteon and have it talking to HomeSeer.
 
As for security, the builder includes a Honeywell Ademco 21ip which is compatible with HomeSeer as well, so that's covered.
 
What benefit would I have for buying an ISY?  Can HomeSeer + Insteon PLM not do everything w/ Insteon that the ISY can do?

 

[homejones]

Sorry, I should have clarified what I was planning.
 
I am going to be using HomeSeer as I really like HSTouch and the fact that it has plugins for just about everything.  I already have the PLM for Insteon and have it talking to HomeSeer.
 
As for security, the builder includes a Honeywell Ademco 21ip which is compatible with HomeSeer as well, so that's covered.
 
What benefit would I have for buying an ISY?  Can HomeSeer + Insteon PLM not do everything w/ Insteon that the ISY can do?

I will caveat the following by saying that I've actually never used Homeseer. I followed the forums for a time when I thought I would be using HS as my front-end and lurked on the Insteon sub-forums for a little bit. I'm not sure how responsive the plug-in developer is on HS. The following is my opinion on the ISY.
 
An ISY makes the process of pairing devices VERY easy. It also allows you to group devices into scenes in a simple-to-use intuitive interface. The ISY alleviates you from having to compile scenes manually (that is, by hitting a sequence of set buttons on the various switches/keypads that you would like to group together). Further, rules are stored in a static box that will run 24/7. The ISY is free from the burdens of an OS as you will most likely be using some embedded version of Windows with HS, meaning if the HS system crashes/hangs/reboots, your ISY will continue to chug along.

 

[ClemsonJeeper]

I will caveat the following by saying that I've actually never used Homeseer. I followed the forums for a time when I thought I would be using HS as my front-end and lurked on the Insteon sub-forums for a little bit. I'm not sure how responsive the plug-in developer is on HS. The following is my opinion on the ISY.
 
An ISY makes the process of pairing devices VERY easy. It also allows you to group devices into scenes in a simple-to-use intuitive interface. The ISY alleviates you from having to compile scenes manually (that is, by hitting a sequence of set buttons on the various switches/keypads that you would like to group together). Further, rules are stored in a static box that will run 24/7. The ISY is free from the burdens of an OS as you will most likely be using some embedded version of Windows with HS, meaning if the HS system crashes/hangs/reboots, your ISY will continue to chug along.

 
I've already bought HomeSeer as well as Z-Wave and Insteon test devices to test in my Townhouse before I jump fully in.
 
HomeSeer will be running on my media server 24/7 so that's not an issue.

It sounds like ISY is pretty much the same as the HomeSeer appliance but dedicated to Insteon and with a more intuitive interface.  I'm not too concerned about this since I've taught myself how to get around in HS during my testing.
 
The plugin author also posts up daily in their forums so again not another concern that I have.  He's already working on the new plugin for HomeSeer 3.
 
Sounds like I'll be fine with HomeSeer.

 

[picta]

If you really like Homeseer then z-wave is probably a better way to go. It is supported by Homeseer and not by a 3d party plugin. It covers all sorts of devices in addition to light switches, like motion and door locks and has its own zwave controller with diagnostic tools built in. As a general rule, the less plugins you have enabled and more of those that are the native ones, the more stable the system will be.

 

[ClemsonJeeper]

If you really like Homeseer then z-wave is probably a better way to go. It is supported by Homeseer and not by a 3d party plugin. It covers all sorts of devices in addition to light switches, like motion and door locks and has its own zwave controller with diagnostic tools built in. As a general rule, the less plugins you have enabled and more of those that are the native ones, the more stable the system will be.

 
I was entirely disappointed by the Z-Wave testbed I had set up.  Miscommunication, locks not transmitting/receiving status, etc.  And this was a small testbed I had in my townhouse.
 
Everyone said that since Z-Wave is mesh, the more devices the better the network, but I'm not willing to make a several thousand dollar experiment..

 

[jhdale]

Just another data point, I have ~30 units. I had one real failure (device communicated, LED toggled, load always remained on) which Smarthome replaced for free out of warranty. And one flaky device (occasionally freezes up) that I've been meaning to replace (just haven't gotten around to it). Both were the cheaper and now discontinued Icon switches.

My only hesitation would be jumping in with just-released items. The thermostats and Hub had some teething issues. But in this day and age, this really applies to all electronics. Wait for someone to review it...

As for communication, I had one area that was a little flaky, which I never got around to tracking down the noise source for. Replaced the switch with a dual-band switch, problem solved. Now that an increasing proportion of the line is dual-band I think there will be fewer problems overall. Not no problems, but fewer.

 

[ChrisCicc]

I was entirely disappointed by the Z-Wave testbed I had set up.  Miscommunication, locks not transmitting/receiving status, etc.  And this was a small testbed I had in my townhouse.
 
Everyone said that since Z-Wave is mesh, the more devices the better the network, but I'm not willing to make a several thousand dollar experiment..

 
INSTEON is much better for less dense networks, as it has MUCH longer range than Z-Wave or ZigBee, while also being a mesh network.
 
Also, there is a new dual-band Hub now available that addresses the issues with the first. This is a great product as it offers solid entry-level software capabilities, while offering users the ability to "upgrade" to more advanced software like CastleOS or HomeSeer without having to purchase a new INSTEON adapter.

 

[ChrisCicc]

Further, rules are stored in a static box that will run 24/7. The ISY is free from the burdens of an OS as you will most likely be using some embedded version of Windows with HS, meaning if the HS system crashes/hangs/reboots, your ISY will continue to chug along.

 
The ISY runs on Linux, which at this point in time is no less or more reliable than the Windows Embedded platform that CastleOS and HomeSeer use. 

 

[ChrisCicc]

I am in almost the same position as the OP-- starting a new house and looking for HA and security solutions. There is much to like about Insteon-- but what I can't square is the many vitriolic flames about Insteon hardware and Smarthome online and some of the more recent favorable comments such as these. What has changed? Was there a major shift in QA or design of parts, if so what and when? Has there been a change in management at Smarthome?

 
No change in management, but the team has grown quite a bit. As others have mentioned, first generation devices had some issues. They fixed that, improved on the protocol with version two (i2), and now again with version three (i2CS). Since that early period, these devices have actually been the most reliable devices in the industry (I've seen the stats). Unfortunately, due to the powerline nature of INSTEON, it is susceptible to noise, for instance from a faulty compressor, or a cross wired ground in the breaker panel - i.e. issues with people's homes. That's where most of the negative comments you read online originate from - the age old habit of upset customers being louder than happy ones. Now with the new dual-band devices, if there is noise on the powerline, it fails over to the RF, therefore not impacting reliability. 

Just a couple of examples of it's reliability on a large scale, INSTEON is currently running a 60,000 sq. ft. house, with nearly 2,000 devices, as well as the British Embassy in Washington, D.C. Even after we launch our Z-Wave support in a couple weeks, INSTEON will still be my first recommendation to customers.

Also, one other note, dealers can offer package pricing on INSTEON, so you don't have to wait until Christmas

 

[apostolakisl]

No change in management, but the team has grown quite a bit. As others have mentioned, first generation devices had some issues. They fixed that, improved on the protocol with version two (i2), and now again with version three (i2CS). Since that early period, these devices have actually been the most reliable devices in the industry (I've seen the stats). Unfortunately, due to the powerline nature of INSTEON, it is susceptible to noise, for instance from a faulty compressor, or a cross wired ground in the breaker panel - i.e. issues with people's homes. That's where most of the negative comments you read online originate from - the age old habit of upset customers being louder than happy ones. Now with the new dual-band devices, if there is noise on the powerline, it fails over to the RF, therefore not impacting reliability. 

Just a couple of examples of it's reliability on a large scale, INSTEON is currently running a 60,000 sq. ft. house, with nearly 2,000 devices, as well as the British Embassy in Washington, D.C. Even after we launch our Z-Wave support in a couple weeks, INSTEON will still be my first recommendation to customers.

Also, one other note, dealers can offer package pricing on INSTEON, so you don't have to wait until Christmas

 
 
I would be careful buying from dealers.  Unless something has changed, if you didn't buy it from smarthome directly, then they don't service the warranty.  You would have to go back to whoever you bought from.  Maybe not such a big deal now that my devices aren't failing, but I sure was happy to be able to ship them all back to SH and get all new replacements back 3 or 4 years ago.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

I find it hard to recommend any powerline communications technology as you just don't know the exact environment of someone's system.  I've read many, many posts here and there are good and bad situations involving X-10, Insteon, and UPB, all related to noise, coupling between phases, and loss of signal across the home.
 
There are just to many variables which can affect the quality (related to powerline transmission efficiency) of an AC power system.

 

[ClemsonJeeper]

I find it hard to recommend any powerline communications technology as you just don't know the exact environment of someone's system.  I've read many, many posts here and there are good and bad situations involving X-10, Insteon, and UPB, all related to noise, coupling between phases, and loss of signal across the home.
 
There are just to many variables which can affect the quality (related to powerline transmission efficiency) of an AC power system.

Is it naive to assume that since this is a brand new builder construction that I will have less issues with the way the AC power is installed?

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Is it naive to assume that since this is a brand new builder construction that I will have less issues with the way the AC power is installed?

Well, again, IMO yes as most of the issues are related to what is plugged into the grid causing the problems.  Though I have read a couple of instances that attributed noise eminating from a neighbors system, which might dictate a problem with the original installation design.
 
My favorite post is THIS one, though it is older and relates to X-10 issues, it shows just all the things that could cause issues with the powerline.
 
Another funny thing about Insteon, when it first was coming out, I remember interviewing a SmartHome rep at a past CES convention and they were touting how that protocol would be immune to noise...

 

[pete_c]

Historically never paid attention to the electrical or electrical wiring or even the fuse panel.  The basics are all still there with much of the "rules" dating back some 50 years. 
 
I would suggest utilizing an infrastructure that is up to date with some basics that can be related to switches and switch gang boxes, et al. 
 
Lighting protection is good to have these days as there are a number of "things" plugged into the house power circuits which can be replaced but expensive. 
 
Here in the midwest I have doubled the amount of circuits just to provide some granularity with smaller loads in the panel and more runs.  IE: like my family room used to have one circuit for the lighting and outlets.  I redid it some such that the multimedia stuff, lighting and non multimedia outlets went to separate circuits.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

I also want to point out that I believe a powerline CAN be conditioned to become a friendly environment as a mechanism for communications, but it takes some work and diagnostic equipment/testing to get to that state.
 
For instance, I still use X-10 in my home (I know, I know) and it is VERY reliable; but, I purchased a signal strentgh meter and spent a lot of time flipping breakers and going around the house measuring signal strength and noise levels, plus I also went through three different brands of coupler/repeaters until I found one that worked out to my liking.
 
I also had to purchase a lot of noise blocks to then isolate offending equipment that plugged into my grid.  It took a lot of work and did cost a bit by time it was all over, but it did result in a reliable system.
 
I also had to remove some equipment that was so noisy, it could not be fixed with a signal block isolator (never buy a RaidMax power supply for your computer, plus some plug in heaters were offensive as well).