Insteon vs Z-Wave products

[wwat]

Hi All,

I'm re-evaluating my decision to outfit my home with Insteon products. Quite frankly I'm not that impressed with reliability/quality and based on past forum feedback and the current problems, I'm fearing that the product might start failing over the next few years and that would be quite the nightmare with regard to pulling in-wall switches, not to mention all the expense.
I decided on Insteon at the time because the product was within my price range, it has a smart appearence and it was supported by the ISY unit developed by UDI. I'm not concerned at all with regard to the ISY unit as I know the developer always does his best for his customers and any future solution would have to include that product. I know UDI is working on a Z-Wave version of ISY which is due out later this year and was interested in whether this might be a safer bet although slightly more expensive in the short term. With Z-wave I could purchase Leviton products like Vizia but again I'm not certain just how much more reliable this would be over the longer term 10+ years. Perhaps there are more premium Z-wave products out there but I'm not sure, any suggestions and comments welcome.

Regards,
Wayne

 

[Steve]

Welcome to CocoonTech Wayne. As the old expression goes, "there is nothing certain but death and taxes". I don't think anyone has a crystal ball an can say 1. What technology will work best in your home and 2. Will it still be around in 10 years. I would agree with your assessment that Insteon is not a great choice at least at the current time. That leaves various flavors of ZWave, Zigbee ala Jetstream and UPB. Every house is different. You may have a clean powerline (at least now) and dirty 'airwaves', or vice-versa. Or, the powerline could change as simply as installing a new pool pump or any electronic device. Your local airwaves can change as easily as a new cordless phone or other wireless device, or even something out of your control. The bottom line is there are variables with any of them, the only sure bet is hardwired which is unfortunately impractical for retrofit. If you can get Cat5 easily to your switches then something like ALC would be by far the safest method and then you can even hybrid it by supplementing with some other tech for stuff like inline modules, outlets, etc.

 

[upstatemike]

Hi All,

I'm re-evaluating my decision to outfit my home with Insteon products. Quite frankly I'm not that impressed with reliability/quality and based on past forum feedback and the current problems, I'm fearing that the product might start failing over the next few years and that would be quite the nightmare with regard to pulling in-wall switches, not to mention all the expense.
I decided on Insteon at the time because the product was within my price range, it has a smart appearence and it was supported by the ISY unit developed by UDI. I'm not concerned at all with regard to the ISY unit as I know the developer always does his best for his customers and any future solution would have to include that product. I know UDI is working on a Z-Wave version of ISY which is due out later this year and was interested in whether this might be a safer bet although slightly more expensive in the short term. With Z-wave I could purchase Leviton products like Vizia but again I'm not certain just how much more reliable this would be over the longer term 10+ years. Perhaps there are more premium Z-wave products out there but I'm not sure, any suggestions and comments welcome.

Regards,
Wayne

Hi Wayne-

I don't have an answer for you as I am in much the same boat and still trying to decide on a way forward. I have mostly been looking at UPB but I have not ruled out Z-Wave. There are just some things about Z-Wave that bug me that I need to get past. Among them are:

-Much of the Z-Wave stuff I have seen seems surprisingly unattractive. Maybe it just doesn't photgraph well but it all looks like the old industrial grade X-10 switches that ACT used to make. The exception of course is the super expensive options such as Cooper but I am not in a position to spend $130 per switch.

-I'm not really sure how to set up a simple test to even try it out in my home. Normally I would install a switch in my office and a second switch in a remote location such as the garage (about 200 feet away) and link the two so I could see how they work. With Z-Wave I guess I would have to buy a bunch more switches for this test because the signal would have to go through several hops to travel that distance through 4 chimneys and a number of other obstructions. Already seems too complicated just for this simple scenario.

-As I understand it, my test would be further complicated because I have to buy a special magic remote control to carry around in order to program the switches. Hopefully if the batteries die in that thing you don't have run around and reprogram your whole system?

-Apparently not all Z-Wave switches report their status upon local activiation. This is a huge issue for me since I use switch activations to trigger a ton of automation events.

-I feel I have gotten burned on the scalability issue with a lot of automation products lately. Mnufacturers publish specs based on the address space they have provisioned into their products but apprently they never actually do any load or capaciy testing to see if the products they make can actually meet those specs. I have heard of very large UPB installations but so far have not run across any first hand accounts of folks who are running large Z-Wave setups (150-250 switches or modules).

-Some Z-Wave manufacturers seem to want to use special wired slave switches for 3-way applications. I absolutely do not want to use wired slave switches anywhere. I want to do any 3-way configuration using the core technology (UPB, Z-Wave, or whatever) to link the switches. Every switch needs to look and act the same. Every switch needs to be reconfigurable fo new virtual relationships whenever I want.

-I am not clear what the Z-Wave equivalent to Upstart is. It is important to be able to sit at a PC and reprogram my switches. Hopefully you don't haeve to run around with the magic remote control that was used for switch enrollment every time you need to edit a switch's settings?

Hopefully over time I will come to understand Z-Wave better and I will also watch to see what feedback you get here.

 

[wwat]

Hi Steve,

Totally understand regarding non hardwired vs hardwired but its an existing house and whilst I could probably get to some of the switches during renovations, it would be much too big of a job. So the question is which of the non-hardwired solutions has demonstrated greater reliability than the others over the years.

My home is about 2500 sf and is more or less box shape with 2 levels (timber constuction) so I think a wireless solution would work with regard to size of home. I'm out in a semi rural area (2 acre lot) with very little in the way of industry for miles although there is a wifi tower that provides us all with high speed internet just up the road. The tower hosts 2.4Ghz 5.8Ghz and 900Mhz equipment and I have a 2.4 wireless router and phones. I actually work in the wireless internet field so all this is not so foreign to me.

I'm not looking for 100% certainty on all devices but some of you must have experience on which non-hardwired products and manufactures have proved themselves to be more reliable over time than others.


Many Thanks,
Wayne

 

[Steve]

Yup, like I said and Digger as well, it's impossible to say. UPB has probably been around the longest and is very reliable. It works great, but it is not perfect. Loads changed by links do not transmit their status and some people (myself included) have trouble with some noise sources. But, there are ways to deal with it. Same with Z-Wave, some of the better stuff is extremely reliable and works well, but some people do have trouble. Personally, after UPB I like the Zigbee/Jetstream offering but I HATE their switch. In fact, almost all of the wireless technologies use a toggle for the switch. If you like a switch that is 'different' where you toggle the light on/off by the bottom of the rocker only, you may really like Vizia RF+, its a nice product. But... It is wireless and the toggle is atypical. The Jetstream switch looks more 'normal', it is flat, BUT, and this is what killed it for me, the top part of the switch works ok, but if you try to press the bottom if is VERY difficult to press. Since it looks visually like you can press either part of the switch and 'think' you are using it like a rocker, you will be disappointed. At least with Vizia, at least you know by looking at it where you have to press. I think you need to first narrow down based on look/feel and budget, then if there are still several choice, perhaps buy 1 or 2 of each to try. Believe me, looking at a picture and actually touching it are very different.

Or, if you can make it to a show like Ehx that's a great way to see and touch all of them in the same room.

 

[KenM]

Perhaps there are more premium Z-wave products out there but I'm not sure, any suggestions and comments welcome.

Hi Wayne,

I can only speak for first generation Z-Wave and INSTEON. I tried INSTEON, it did not work for me, too many issues, too much R&R of wall switches to fix the issues. Over all, I had a unhappy INSTEON experience.

I have been using Leviton's Vizia-RF (now 'Vizia-RF+') since they were first available without any failures or performance issues. I miss the INSTEON link 'anything to anything', but, with Homeseer2 (and probably other software) you can have the Vizia-RF stuff work in a similar manner. Example, I have three aquariums, I set one to control the lights in the other two. All I have to do is hit the switch on the first one and the others do the same on/off stuff.

I have one Vizia-RF dimmer module that I purposely tried to kill, with evil loads. That module has controlled the speed of a 300 watt 'whole house' ventilation fan for two Southern California summers. I have used it to control a 600 watt electric heater for two of the mild SC winters. The thing is like the energizer bunny, it just keeps going and going ...

The INSTEON appliance modules that I used would smoke (literally) when I plugged in a 30 watt ballasted fluorescent light. I killed three that way. The Leviton Vizia-RF modules worked fine, right out of the box and are still working great after about two years. The Leviton switches also have a good quality look and feel.

Some people will try to spread rumors that the Z-Wave RF signals do not work in a RF intensive environment, as found in a lot of homes now a days. If I worked for Myth Busters, I would call that rumor 'busted'. I have a wireless B/G network with between one and three computers on the wireless part, along with one wireless camera. I have two 5.8 Ghz cordless phones, both of my close neighbors have similar home networks and wireless phones operating in various bands. I live in a City (Oxnard,CA) across the street from a Naval base, where there is just a lot of RF floating around in different bands. I also have two cell phones in operation at my location. I have had no issues with the Vizia-RF devices when controlled by the Homeseer Z-Troller, or just when one switch needs to control another.

Other people will say that the toggle action of the Vizia-RF switches, "just won't work", because guest get confused. My three year old grand son has no problem at all working the wall switches. Enough said about that.

I can only guess that UPB is highly reliable too. As I understand it, the UPB approach is just to send out a very strong signal. I'm a novice at UPB. INSTEON relies on most all of their devices being 'repeaters' of valid signals that they hear. The problem with that approach is that each device needs to have a microprocessor running 'full out' just to keep up in a busy house. Add in a little noise and SH makes a lot of money selling the 'FilterLinc' things at better than $20 a pop.

I know of unhappy INSTEON users who switched to another product. I currently, do not know of any Vizia-RF users who got so unhappy that they switched to INSTEON. That alone says a lot.

My own biased opinion.

Regards,

Ken Miller

 

[upstatemike]

Loads changed by links do not transmit their status...

Curious why this is important? As long as your HA controller hears the link and knows what switches will respond to it, why does the switch itself need to report anything?

 

[Steve]

Ken,

How do you feel about the aesthetics? Like if you have a multigang box and some switches are typical rockers and some are RF+. Does that not look 'funny'? I know aesthetics is a very personal thing and it bothers some tremendously and no biggie to others.

 

[Steve]

Loads changed by links do not transmit their status...

Curious why this is important? As long as your HA controller hears the link and knows what switches will respond to it, why does the switch itself need to report anything?

Just because the controller hears the link, it does not know what it really means. For example, say an install of Elk M1 and UPB. Now lets say you have either TS07 or CQC or whatever displaying switch status. If you change the load manually via switch, your status page will update correctly. But, if you set up direct switch to switch links, like perhaps a scene, the status page will NOT update. The M1 may 'see' the link, but has no clue how it is related to the switches. Only other switches with that link in their receive table know what to do. The 'workaround' is to have your switch transmit a single unused link (not in any other receive table), then have the M1 pick up that link and via rules have the M1 control the other switches to create the scene. Then, since the M1 did the work, your status page will be correct.

 

[upstatemike]

Loads changed by links do not transmit their status...

Curious why this is important? As long as your HA controller hears the link and knows what switches will respond to it, why does the switch itself need to report anything?

Just because the controller hears the link, it does not know what it really means. For example, say an install of Elk M1 and UPB. Now lets say you have either TS07 or CQC or whatever displaying switch status. If you change the load manually via switch, your status page will update correctly. But, if you set up direct switch to switch links, like perhaps a scene, the status page will NOT update. The M1 may 'see' the link, but has no clue how it is related to the switches. Only other switches with that link in their receive table know what to do. The 'workaround' is to have your switch transmit a single unused link (not in any other receive table), then have the M1 pick up that link and via rules have the M1 control the other switches to create the scene. Then, since the M1 did the work, your status page will be correct.

OK I see now. Using Insteon with an ISY or PowerHome controller this is not an issue because they also act as the "UpStart equivalent" and program the links so they know exactly what each link means to every device. Using an ISY with an M1 ensures that the alarm panel is also kept in sync.

How does Z-Wave do it? Do Z-Wave devices report their status regardless of how they are activated? (Assuming you are using the versions that report their status at all) Ignoring Homeseer, which uses custom hardware to track Z-Wave, how do Home Automation controllers accurately track the status of Z-wave switches?

 

[wwat]

Hi Upstatemike,

Gee my delima seems to pale in comparison but I think my home size and construction would at least not be the limiting factor with a decision to go RF, I mean if it isn't going to reliably work in this house it won't work anywhere. My wireless router/phones work well throughout the whole house and even out in the garage and driveway.

The Insteon product is certainly up their in the attractiveness and flexibility categories, its just so infurating they currently lack in other more important areas, like reliability, quality, public openness and transparancy. No company is perfect 100% of the time but there does seem to be a pattern with them that has caused me to sit back and re-evaluate before moving ahead.

This vivia product doesn't look ugly but as you say its hard to tell from these pictures, which are a little blury (isn't that frustrating), on some of the websites you click the picture hoping to see a larger clearer version and only to get dissapointed with a smaller picture that is grainy. According to the spec it does report local activation which is important for me too but it would be nice to get a feel for how it works.

I could be wrong but Z-wave protocol seems to be more reliably documented with tighter quality checks than the Insteon protocol. With Insteon it appears SH change the spec without informing many of the third party manufacturer which causes huge problems for them, this doesns't appear to be the case for the Z-wave protocol. That would mean over the longer term Z-wave would get a greater manufacturer following than the Insteon protocol, I know they are product based on different technologies but what manufacturer is going to put up with badly documented changing protocols over the long term.

Many thanks,
Wayne

Hi Wayne-

I don't have an answer for you as I am in much the same boat and still trying to decide on a way forward. I have mostly been looking at UPB but I have not ruled out Z-Wave. There are just some things about Z-Wave that bug me that I need to get past. Among them are:

-Much of the Z-Wave stuff I have seen seems surprisingly unattractive. Maybe it just doesn't photgraph well but it all looks like the old industrial grade X-10 switches that ACT used to make. The exception of course is the super expensive options such as Cooper but I am not in a position to spend $130 per switch.

-I'm not really sure how to set up a simple test to even try it out in my home. Normally I would install a switch in my office and a second switch in a remote location such as the garage (about 200 feet away) and link the two so I could see how they work. With Z-Wave I guess I would have to buy a bunch more switches for this test because the signal would have to go through several hops to travel that distance through 4 chimneys and a number of other obstructions. Already seems too complicated just for this simple scenario.

-As I understand it, my test would be further complicated because I have to buy a special magic remote control to carry around in order to program the switches. Hopefully if the batteries die in that thing you don't have run around and reprogram your whole system?

-Apparently not all Z-Wave switches report their status upon local activiation. This is a huge issue for me since I use switch activations to trigger a ton of automation events.

-I feel I have gotten burned on the scalability issue with a lot of automation products lately. Mnufacturers publish specs based on the address space they have provisioned into their products but apprently they never actually do any load or capaciy testing to see if the products they make can actually meet those specs. I have heard of very large UPB installations but so far have not run across any first hand accounts of folks who are running large Z-Wave setups (150-250 switches or modules).

-Some Z-Wave manufacturers seem to want to use special wired slave switches for 3-way applications. I absolutely do not want to use wired slave switches anywhere. I want to do any 3-way configuration using the core technology (UPB, Z-Wave, or whatever) to link the switches. Every switch needs to look and act the same. Every switch needs to be reconfigurable fo new virtual relationships whenever I want.

-I am not clear what the Z-Wave equivalent to Upstart is. It is important to be able to sit at a PC and reprogram my switches. Hopefully you don't haeve to run around with the magic remote control that was used for switch enrollment every time you need to edit a switch's settings?

Hopefully over time I will come to understand Z-Wave better and I will also watch to see what feedback you get here.

 

[upstatemike]

I could be wrong but Z-wave protocol seems to be more reliably documented with tighter quality checks than the Insteon protocol. With Insteon it appears SH change the spec without informing many of the third party manufacturer which causes huge problems for them, this doesns't appear to be the case for the Z-wave protocol. That would mean over the longer term Z-wave would get a greater manufacturer following than the Insteon protocol, I know they are product based on different technologies but what manufacturer is going to put up with badly documented changing protocols over the long term.

Not sure Z-Wave is is truly a tighter spec. Didn't they switch the data speed a couple of years after introduction? Don't they permit vendor specific implementations of advanced features that can cause problems in a mixed vendor environment? (As I understand it each system requires a master controller and that master controller only supports the advanced feature set of those switches that are the same brand as the master)

 

[wwat]

You can see Insteon's track record. No further comments are needed as their track record says it all.

No one mfg or protocal is perfect for everyone. Weigh the options and go with your gut. Zwave and UPB are both very good but they each have their own advantages and disadvantages.

In the end I guess the decision will be based on gut feel, but for that I'd like to get know about some of those advantages and dis-advantages from folks who have direct experience with the products. My final installation isn't going to be that large compared to some, to give you an idea 15 dimmers, 20 non-dimmers, 5 outlets and 5 dimmable lamp switches, thermostat, a central control unit, touch panel. Currently I dont have the touch panel and theromstat, and only have a portion of the other units purchased and installed, controlled by the ISY unit. I'd also like to add whole house music at some stage but I'm not sure how that will fit into the plan.

Thanks,
Wayne

 

[upstatemike]

You can see Insteon's track record. No further comments are needed as their track record says it all.

No one mfg or protocal is perfect for everyone. Weigh the options and go with your gut. Zwave and UPB are both very good but they each have their own advantages and disadvantages.

In the end I guess the decision will be based on gut feel, but for that I'd like to get know about some of those advantages and dis-advantages from folks who have direct experience with the products. My final installation isn't going to be that large compared to some, to give you an idea 15 dimmers, 20 non-dimmers, 5 outlets and 5 dimmable lamp switches, thermostat, a central control unit, touch panel. Currently I dont have the touch panel and theromstat, and only have a portion of the other units purchased and installed, controlled by the ISY unit. I'd also like to add whole house music at some stage but I'm not sure how that will fit into the plan.

Thanks,
Wayne

Some other thoughts:

UPB dos not have screw-in modules (Insteon no longer does either but they used to and the ones I have are critical to my setup)

Z-Wave does not have keypads that also control a local load (unless that changed recently). I would have a hard time using Z-wave in several locations because of this.

For whole-house audio take a look at Sonos.

 

[KenM]

Ken,

How do you feel about the aesthetics? Like if you have a multigang box and some switches are typical rockers and some are RF+. Does that not look 'funny'? I know aesthetics is a very personal thing and it bothers some tremendously and no biggie to others.

I have a 1958 vintage house with single gang boxes (small, around 1600 sq. ft.). ALL of my wall switch boxes are now the Vizia-RF stuff. I also have about ten of the Vizia-RF things as 'plug in' modules that work very well.

I guess the answer is, I don't know about that.

I'm the lucky guy that has worked security/driver/tech staff duty for a Malibu millionaire. I would put the Leviton stuff in his house. I would NOT put INSTEON in, even if, someone paid me $1000 per switch. That's just me. I live with these people. Trust.

k