Insteon vs Z-Wave products

[intozwave]

As stated previous every techology has it's pluses and minuses. When I decided I wanted to automate my house I spent alot of time looking at each. My house is a 50 year old concrete block and stucco with plaster walls - the electrical is 2 wire not 3 wire (what I wouldn't give for 3 wire some days). After finding Z-Wave and doing alot of research I took the plunge. I like the fact that you are not limited to one Manufacturer - I have Leviton Vizia RF and RF+, ACT, Intouch, HomeSettings being utilized for the electric - I have RCS and Intouch controlling the Heat pumps and numerous sensors thru out the house - "Products that speak Z-Wave work better together" and everything thing seems to play well together.

Z-Wave is a fairly new techology compared to some of the other technologies out there - the alliance has a 175 + companies involved in it and there seems to be new products all the time - the technology reminds me of Windows when it first hit the scene it took a little time to develop. The techology seems to be getting more and more stable. the Series 3 chip gave us alot of improvements and the Series 4 chip offers even more with speed, security and battery life to name a few enhancements. We will see when it finally is released.

Some other thoughts:

Z-Wave does not have keypads that also control a local load (unless that changed recently). I would have a hard time using Z-wave in several locations because of this.

From what I understand - Leviton is coming out with scene and zone controllers that also control local load sometime this summer - I guess we will see if they make the target - I am also waiting for those to be able to wrap up a couple of places in the house.

Welcome to the journey

 

[Dogman]

Here is my experience with both Insteon and Z-wave: About year ago I was trying to determine which technology to go with. I decided to try a few Insteon devices because I liked the price point and they ability to configure the LED colors. I have a couple of Insteon dimmers and lamplincs and 1 appliance linc running a hot water recirc pump under the house. I have both the control linc controller and a Insteon PLM serial control. I have tried it with Homeseer, Mainlobby and CQC with mixed results. I also have a remote linc to control them. In general they have worked pretty well but occaisionly for some reason they miss commands sent from the controller. As I played with them more and the different software packages I became less and less impressed. They seemed to have trouble reporting their status to the sofware package accurately. This was mostly annoying. I will say the remote linc works perfectly although it is ugly!! The control linc device I have was working well I have it send a few basic commands so that i don't have to leave the computer on all the time. However, just in the last couple of weeks it has missed the commands and failed to turn on the devices I have linked to it. In addition the software for it that Smarthome provides is a joke. Oh and that ability to change the color of the light bar is cheesy. You have to disassemble the dimmer and install a different colored prism to get different colored LEDs. While it works it looks cheesy. In addition as has been noted many times here the mechanical feel of the rocker just does not inspire confidence that it will last. In my case the dimmers I have rarely get manually changed so I have very few cycles on them but I can tell that is only a matter of time. Lastly the Insteon dimmers get quite warm much more so then my old dimmers and the new Vizia RF+ Zwave dimmers that I have recently purchased.

I decided a few months ago to next try a few Z-wave devices because as I said above I was losing my interest in the Insteon devices and wanted to evaluate something else. I purchased 4 vizia rf+ dimmers, 1 4 -scene controller, 2 lamp dimmers and 1 appliance module, and two switch modules. I also purchased a Intermatic Z-wave receptacle since Leviton does not yet make any z-wave receptacles. While setting up the network with the remote is kind of a pain and a bit confusing especially with all the terms that are thrown at you such as groups versus areas and so forth if you spend a bit of time reading it will eventually sink in. First the first 4 months I just used the handheld remote as the controller with the built in timer. It has so far not missed one event. I am not really enthusiastic about the remote design either it is better looking then the Insteon Remote linc but it suffers from having too small of LCD screen for my eyes but it does work well. In my situation I really need a RF type remote for my Great Room as my switches for the lights are on the wall behind me so an IR type remote just wont do. Eventually I will settle on a software solution like CQC to run everything so this will be less important. As far as the estethics of the Vizia switches go I was dubious of them because I have always liked rocker switches and the rest of my switches in the house are rockers but as I have had them for a few months I really do like the looks of them and they are simple push on push off operation means you don't have to think about it. I do wish they had configurable LEDs though . The Vizia controller also works great with the single Intermatic receptacle even though the receptacle will not automatically broadcast status but you can poll for it. I believe the cooper receptacle will broadcast state changes but not sure. About 4 weeks ago I finally installed my ELK M1 and a M1XSP with the new firmware for the VIZIA RZCOP serial module. After a few glitches of setup and rule making it appears that the Vizia is working quite well with the M1 now. I probably need a few more nodes in my system as I have alot of metal boxes in my house and it reduces the range of the switchs quite a bit and occaisionally the switches in the metal boxes in the basement don't always give there status correctly to the M-1 but that may also be able to be improved by just manually changing the routes. I plan on playing with the Vizia devices I have a few more months before I decide to fully commit. If that doesn't work out for some reason then I may just go with ALC and figure out how to get a Cat 5e to all my switches. I am lazy though so I hope to continue to have good luck with the Vizia RF+. Lastly I was an electrician many years ago and my Dad had an electrical contracting business for over 50 years and we pretty much exclusivly used Leviton devices over the years. Of course they were just dumb switches and receptacles but my point is they have been around for a long time and probably will be for a bit longer. Cooper of course is also excellant stuff but have no experience with it. Also for what it is worth Levition offers a 5 year warranty on the Vizia. Yes Insteon I think now has a 7 year warrenty but that is probably because they have to with all of their failures. My Insteon while still all working will most likely be coming out soon.

 

[Herdfan]

I'm not looking for 100% certainty on all devices but some of you must have experience on which non-hardwired products and manufactures have proved themselves to be more reliable over time than others.

To get as close to 100% as you can get, I would recommend looking at RadioRA. Its not cheap, but it is about as bulletproof as wireless can get.

 

[forgets]

To get as close to 100% as you can get, I would recommend looking at RadioRA. Its not cheap, but it is about as bulletproof as wireless can get.

I second a look at radioRA, it's what i went with when i saw all the back and forth between Insteon and z-wave users.. It's definetly been rock solid in my house, but that comes at the price that the system is quite a bit pricier than the others aforementioned. You should realize that radioRA also has it's limitations.. you can go up to 32 switches on the system (64 if you add a chronos.. but be prepared to drop $$$).. also you might need an extra repeater depending how much rf problems there are in your house. One thing that's also a deal breaker for some people is that it doesn't report dim level like some other switches do.. and there is a bit of delay if you go and turn on switch after switch from a master controller (though that can be solved by putting several switches in 'scenes').. also the in wall master controllers don't directly control loads (though they have to be wired to 120v - and the system requires hot, neutral and ground).. I've had my system for 2 years now, and it's been 100% reliable.. it's never missed a command even though i've got an older house with the thick plaster and sometimes up to 1" thick interior drywall. Plus i really like the aesthetics of llswitches and how they're tap on, tap off, double tap for full brightness, with a dimmer on the side for most switches.

 

[MikeB]

With Z-wave I could purchase Leviton products like Vizia but again I'm not certain just how much more reliable this would be over the longer term 10+ years. Perhaps there are more premium Z-wave products out there but I'm not sure, any suggestions and comments welcome.

With manufacturers like Cooper and Leviton, I wouldn't be too worried about switch reliability.

I'm not a fan of the style of the Zwave switches I've seen. I also wouldn't be able to do half the things I currently do with Insteon without a true rocker switch. I don't personally like the operation or looks the Leviton devices I've seen first-hand.

Potential RF problems are a reality, but so are powerline issues. When I was at EHX 2 years ago at the Intermatic booth, they couldn't even demonstrate the linking of devices because of all the RF at the show.

No one can predict 10 year reliability, but with names like Leviton and Cooper that wouldn't be my concern - I'd focus on whether or not you like the product and technology. Why not purchase a few and try them out? Worse comes to worse, you can always eBay them or sell them here.

 

[wwat]

Hi Ken,

That is exactly the type of biased opinion I'm interested in. There appears to be two types of switch paddles, one that looks a little like the Insteon and the other has a LED bar positioned horizintally across the top of the paddle. The second one of the two is the latest model right, the plus version? that is really quite a different appearence. So you tap the bottom part of the paddle for both 'ON' and 'OFF' operations and use the horizontal bar for dimming functions? Do you have any higher quality closeup pics you could post?
If a 3 year old can learn to tap them then I'm sure guests can learn the same, anyway without meaning to sounds too self centered its not the guests that have to like the things, its my better half and myself. I like the idea of trying a few out before deciding but thats a little difficult because I'm located in Ontario, Canada where freight and everything else from the US adds us quickly so I'm going to look around some more to see if I can find a local supplier to take a look.

Ken said: "I miss the INSTEON link 'anything to anything'"

I guess a central controller would take care of that though. I currently have ISY and it provides enough functionality for my requirements however I might have to be open to other products because it currently only supports Insteon and won't support Z-wave until later this year. There is also the question of manufacturer specific Z-wave functionality which probably will not get supported by ISY. Or UDI may decide to support the base Z-wave protocol and pick a few manufacturers and support their extended functionality. What I like about UDI is that they are very open to user suggestions and feedback so if there is anything you really get stuck on you at least have a chance of getting some help. Whereas if you go with of the bigger manufacturers I'm not sure you would get this same opportunity, Homeseer comes to mind. Homeseer seems to have support for a load of manufacturers though and thats probably not a bad thing. I wonder how often they update their firmware with the availability of new products etc.

At a minimum any solution must be able to accomodate the following functionality:

Central controller that does not require PC to operate (preferably the ISY unit but I might have to open that up to other products to get the reliability I want due to limited supported products)

I want to control various indoor and outdoor lighting using motion sensors. The outdoor stuff is very close to the house main entrance.
I want to be able to control items connected to the outlets when a light switch is turned on.
Some type of touch screen functionality and hand held remote.
Control various lights and equipment base on sunset and sunrise with day light saving.
Whole home audio
Security
Thermostat and humidity control.

Many thanks,
Wayne

Hi Wayne,

I can only speak for first generation Z-Wave and INSTEON. I tried INSTEON, it did not work for me, too many issues, too much R&R of wall switches to fix the issues. Over all, I had a unhappy INSTEON experience.

I have been using Leviton's Vizia-RF (now 'Vizia-RF+') since they were first available without any failures or performance issues. I miss the INSTEON link 'anything to anything', but, with Homeseer2 (and probably other software) you can have the Vizia-RF stuff work in a similar manner. Example, I have three aquariums, I set one to control the lights in the other two. All I have to do is hit the switch on the first one and the others do the same on/off stuff.

I have one Vizia-RF dimmer module that I purposely tried to kill, with evil loads. That module has controlled the speed of a 300 watt 'whole house' ventilation fan for two Southern California summers. I have used it to control a 600 watt electric heater for two of the mild SC winters. The thing is like the energizer bunny, it just keeps going and going ...

The INSTEON appliance modules that I used would smoke (literally) when I plugged in a 30 watt ballasted fluorescent light. I killed three that way. The Leviton Vizia-RF modules worked fine, right out of the box and are still working great after about two years. The Leviton switches also have a good quality look and feel.

Some people will try to spread rumors that the Z-Wave RF signals do not work in a RF intensive environment, as found in a lot of homes now a days. If I worked for Myth Busters, I would call that rumor 'busted'. I have a wireless B/G network with between one and three computers on the wireless part, along with one wireless camera. I have two 5.8 Ghz cordless phones, both of my close neighbors have similar home networks and wireless phones operating in various bands. I live in a City (Oxnard,CA) across the street from a Naval base, where there is just a lot of RF floating around in different bands. I also have two cell phones in operation at my location. I have had no issues with the Vizia-RF devices when controlled by the Homeseer Z-Troller, or just when one switch needs to control another.

Other people will say that the toggle action of the Vizia-RF switches, "just won't work", because guest get confused. My three year old grand son has no problem at all working the wall switches. Enough said about that.

I can only guess that UPB is highly reliable too. As I understand it, the UPB approach is just to send out a very strong signal. I'm a novice at UPB. INSTEON relies on most all of their devices being 'repeaters' of valid signals that they hear. The problem with that approach is that each device needs to have a microprocessor running 'full out' just to keep up in a busy house. Add in a little noise and SH makes a lot of money selling the 'FilterLinc' things at better than $20 a pop.

I know of unhappy INSTEON users who switched to another product. I currently, do not know of any Vizia-RF users who got so unhappy that they switched to INSTEON. That alone says a lot.

My own biased opinion.

Regards,

Ken Miller

 

[wwat]

After a few glitches of setup and rule making it appears that the Vizia is working quite well with the M1 now. I probably need a few more nodes in my system as I have alot of metal boxes in my house and it reduces the range of the switchs quite a bit and occaisionally the switches in the metal boxes in the basement don't always give there status correctly to the M-1 but that may also be able to be improved by just manually changing the routes. I plan on playing with the Vizia devices I have a few more months before I decide to fully commit. If that doesn't work out for some reason then I may just go with ALC and figure out how to get a Cat 5e to all my switches. I am lazy though so I hope to continue to have good luck with the Vizia RF+. Lastly I was an electrician many years ago and my Dad had an electrical contracting business for over 50 years and we pretty much exclusivly used Leviton devices over the years. Of course they were just dumb switches and receptacles but my point is they have been around for a long time and probably will be for a bit longer. Cooper of course is also excellant stuff but have no experience with it. Also for what it is worth Levition offers a 5 year warranty on the Vizia. Yes Insteon I think now has a 7 year warrenty but that is probably because they have to with all of their failures. My Insteon while still all working will most likely be coming out soon.

Thats interesting, metal boxes that is. All my boxes are metal, would that be a problem? My house is pretty much a square at 2500 sf over two levels, so not really any long runs and its wooden constuction for the most part.
I take your point about Leviton being in the game for some years, they have a reputation to uphold. Their warrenty is only good for the initial purchaser of the equipment so if you sell your home the new owner is not covered.
Appreicate the terrific info yu provided.

Many thanks,
Wayne

 

[KenM]

Ken,

How do you feel about the aesthetics? Like if you have a multigang box and some switches are typical rockers and some are RF+. Does that not look 'funny'? I know aesthetics is a very personal thing and it bothers some tremendously and no biggie to others.

I does not bother me a bit. I do not have any multigang boxes, all of my boxes have the Vizia-RF switches in them and I, my wife, kids, and grand kids have accepted them as 'the way it is'.



ken

 

[sloop]

my vote is anything but insteon

any idea when we will see some homeplug compliant devices? is upb on the homeplug bandwagon?

 

[Rupp]

Not sure Z-Wave is is truly a tighter spec. Didn't they switch the data speed a couple of years after introduction? They did but this was in spec and doesn't affect any hardware compatability. Some devices needed more bandwidth IE Thermostats to report their status so they bumped up the speedDon't they permit vendor specific implementations of advanced features that can cause problems in a mixed vendor environment?No the spec states just the opposite, all Z-Wave devices are compatable. They do allow building on the protocol as long as all devices are backwardly compatable. (As I understand it each system requires a master controller and that master controller only supports the advanced feature set of those switches that are the same brand as the master)

One of the nice things about Z-Wave is the muti-vendor hardware. There are new devices being released all the time. Schlage just release Z-Wave dead bolts there are multiple tstats, blind controllers, the list goes on and on. I use HomeSeer to manage my Z-Wave devices with excellent Z-Troller which is a remote and controller built as one. When I need to add a new device to my network I simply unplug the Z-Troller walk to the new device, add it and reconnect to HomeSeer. Load my devices into HomeSeer and you're done.

 

[KenM]

Wayne,

Mine are the older Vizia-RF that are not commonly available for sale any more. The switches have a vertical dimmer bar on the side. I cannot comment on the newer 'RF+'.

To the others,

I have six of the HomeSeer motion/light/temperature sensors that are a good example of the added feature part of the Z-Wave spec. The Vizia-RF automatically reporting status is another example of an added feature. Z-Wave switches will report status if polled, but the automatic feature is not part of the spec.

Just to clarify, the Z-Wave spec is simple enough that it does not need to change. The newer high speed devices communicate well with the older ones. I still use a few of the older first generation appliance switches, just because they are so darned convenient. Some manufactures add on to the spec, which is allowed, to enable additional features. The end result is that any device with a Z-Wave logo will play nicely with any other device with a Z-wave logo for the basic ON/OFF/Dim/Communication functions. I can use any Z-Wave remote to control the basic functions on my Vizia-RF switches. To get at the additional features I need something like HomeSeer or the Leviton Vizia-RF remote.

I learned the hard way that the INSTEON logo is just there for decoration and guarantees nothing other than future income for the company that invented it.

Ken

 

[MikeB]

is upb on the homeplug bandwagon?

UPB and HomePlug would be competing standards. There are rumors of Simply Automated, I believe, going HomePlug.

 

[wwat]

Hi Ken,

The end result is that any device with a Z-Wave logo will play nicely with any other device with a Z-wave logo for the basic ON/OFF/Dim/Communication functions. I can use any Z-Wave remote to control the basic functions on my Vizia-RF switches.

This is very important in my view because you know the equipment will function with future additional equipment added to the network, it provides customer confidence in the brand.

I learned the hard way that the INSTEON logo is just there for decoration and guarantees nothing other than future income for the company that invented it.
Ken

Do you have an example or two from your experience of what was out of spec.

Here is a high level overview of what the Insteon protocol should adhere too:

INSTEON enables simple, low-cost devices to be networked together using the
powerline, radio frequency (RF), or both. All INSTEON devices are peers, meaning
that any device can transmit, receive, or repeat[sup]1[/sup] other messages, without requiring a
master controller or complex routing software. Adding more devices makes an
INSTEON network more robust, by virtue of a simple protocol for communication
retransmissions and retries. On the powerline, INSTEON devices are compatible[sup]2[/sup]
with legacy X10 devices.

1. Battery operated INSTEON RF devices, such as security sensors and handheld
remote controls, must conserve power. Accordingly, they may optionally be
configured so that they do not retransmit INSTEON messages from other
INSTEON devices, but act as message originators only. Such devices can
nevertheless both transmit and receive INSTEON messages, in order to allow
simple setup procedures and to ensure network reliability. See RF Simulcasting
for more information.
2. At a minimum, X10 compatibility means that INSTEON and X10 signals can
coexist with each other on the powerline without mutual interference. INSTEONonly
powerline devices do not retransmit or amplify X10 signals. But X10
compatibility also means that designers are free to create hybrid INSTEON/X10
devices that operate equally well in both environments. By purchasing such
hybrid devices, current users of legacy X10 products can easily upgrade to
INSTEON without making their X10 investment obsolete. See X10 Compatibility
for more information.

 

[intozwave]

Thats interesting, metal boxes that is. All my boxes are metal, would that be a problem? My house is pretty much a square at 2500 sf over two levels, so not really any long runs and its wooden constuction for the most part.
I take your point about Leviton being in the game for some years, they have a reputation to uphold. Their warrenty is only good for the initial purchaser of the equipment so if you sell your home the new owner is not covered.
Appreicate the terrific info yu provided.

Many thanks,
Wayne

I have the old style Vizia RF and the New Style Vizia RF+ in my house as stated early the house is almost 50 yrs old(3000sq ft - single story) - all metal gang boxes and they are not the standard depth of today's boxes - I have 5 multi-gang boxes with multi z-wave switches in them and have had no issues with that - excellent signal strength from all the devices in each multi-gang box. One of the features that I like about Leviton switches is the fact that there are no additional wires to deal with - this has been a bit of an issue with the shallow gang boxes used in my place.

 

[WayneW]

Not sure Z-Wave is is truly a tighter spec. Didn't they switch the data speed a couple of years after introduction? They did but this was in spec and doesn't affect any hardware compatability. Some devices needed more bandwidth IE Thermostats to report their status so they bumped up the speedDon't they permit vendor specific implementations of advanced features that can cause problems in a mixed vendor environment?No the spec states just the opposite, all Z-Wave devices are compatable. They do allow building on the protocol as long as all devices are backwardly compatable. (As I understand it each system requires a master controller and that master controller only supports the advanced feature set of those switches that are the same brand as the master)

One of the nice things about Z-Wave is the muti-vendor hardware. There are new devices being released all the time. Schlage just release Z-Wave dead bolts there are multiple tstats, blind controllers, the list goes on and on. I use HomeSeer to manage my Z-Wave devices with excellent Z-Troller which is a remote and controller built as one. When I need to add a new device to my network I simply unplug the Z-Troller walk to the new device, add it and reconnect to HomeSeer. Load my devices into HomeSeer and you're done.

If Z-wave is so good and "universal", how come there are these negative threads about the new Schlage Z-wave lock not working with anything else Z-wave?
http://board.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t=133684
http://board.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t=133645
I have never touched Z-wave, but I have heard of nothing but a ton of interoperability problems since day 2.