Insteon vs Z-Wave products

[upstatemike]

Not sure Z-Wave is is truly a tighter spec. Didn't they switch the data speed a couple of years after introduction? They did but this was in spec and doesn't affect any hardware compatability. Some devices needed more bandwidth IE Thermostats to report their status so they bumped up the speedDon't they permit vendor specific implementations of advanced features that can cause problems in a mixed vendor environment?No the spec states just the opposite, all Z-Wave devices are compatable. They do allow building on the protocol as long as all devices are backwardly compatable. (As I understand it each system requires a master controller and that master controller only supports the advanced feature set of those switches that are the same brand as the master)

One of the nice things about Z-Wave is the muti-vendor hardware. There are new devices being released all the time. Schlage just release Z-Wave dead bolts there are multiple tstats, blind controllers, the list goes on and on. I use HomeSeer to manage my Z-Wave devices with excellent Z-Troller which is a remote and controller built as one. When I need to add a new device to my network I simply unplug the Z-Troller walk to the new device, add it and reconnect to HomeSeer. Load my devices into HomeSeer and you're done.

If Z-wave is so good and "universal", how come there are these negative threads about the new Schlage Z-wave lock not working with anything else Z-wave?
http://board.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t=133684
http://board.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t=133645
I have never touched Z-wave, but I have heard of nothing but a ton of interoperability problems since day 2.

This, plus all the problems when Z-Wave thermostats first came out and folks were told to buy new remotes to get the firmware that supported them, are good examples of why I continue to be uneasy abou Z-Wave. Does anybody make a firmware upgradable remote that is guaranteed to support any new Z-Wave device that might come out from any manufacturer?

Also still looking for an example of somebody chiming in who has at least 150 or more Z-Wave switches in a single installation. The specs say no problem but any feedback from somebody who is actually doing it?

Finally, I'm still not clear about the push on/push off paddles. If you have a switch that controls 5 lamp modules and 3 of those are already on from some other controller, what happens when you press the switch paddle? does it depend on the current state of the switch itself? So If the switch is off, to turn all the lamp modules off would you first toggle the switch On (turning on the other 2 lamp modules as well) and then hit it again to turn everything off? I'm just not getting the Z-Wave logic here.

 

[Rupp]

If Z-wave is so good and "universal", how come there are these negative threads about the new Schlage Z-wave lock not working with anything else Z-wave?
http://board.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t=133684
http://board.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t=133645
I have never touched Z-wave, but I have heard of nothing but a ton of interoperability problems since day 2.

Good question. You can't believe everything you read. Schlage, is breaking the Z-Wave rules a bit so I guess the Z-Wave cops need to visit them. Just because there's a standard doesn't mean everyone follows it.
What other interoperability problems have you heard of since "day 2"? I'm still using the original Sylvania plugin lamp modules, some of the first released Home Pro light switches, along side of the new HSM100 temp, light, motion sensors, as well as some door and window sensors I bought from Hawking, along side of a RCS Z-Wave tstat, and lastly some out door modules from Intermatic, and the Z-Troller controller from HomeSeer and I have not interoperability issues what so ever.

 

[WayneW]

If Z-wave is so good and "universal", how come there are these negative threads about the new Schlage Z-wave lock not working with anything else Z-wave?
http://board.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t=133684
http://board.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t=133645
I have never touched Z-wave, but I have heard of nothing but a ton of interoperability problems since day 2.

Good question. You can't believe everything you read. Schlage, is breaking the Z-Wave rules a bit so I guess the Z-Wave cops need to visit them. Just because there's a standard doesn't mean everyone follows it.
What other interoperability problems have you heard of since "day 2"? I'm still using the original Sylvania plugin lamp modules, some of the first released Home Pro light switches, along side of the new HSM100 temp, light, motion sensors, as well as some door and window sensors I bought from Hawking, along side of a RCS Z-Wave tstat, and lastly some out door modules from Intermatic, and the Z-Troller controller from HomeSeer and I have not interoperability issues what so ever.

Rup, you mentioned the Schlage as a cool new Z-wave, then you admit they must be breaking the rules, so in my mind, that isn't a Z-wave device! If I build a SATA hard disk, but don't follow the SATA standard, then I haven't really built a SATA hard disk, have I?

For an example of the day 2 issues (since the second brand/line of devices was released), just look at the Z-wave thermostats USM mentioned. And what about the status update trick devices that only work with HomeSeer. Pardon me if I got the details wrong, but there is a very common impression that Z-wave isn't nearly as universal as you would like to believe. I wish we could all live in your house where everything always works perfect and you never regret a decision or a purchase.

 

[KenM]

Do you have an example or two from your experience of what was out of spec.

Without getting too involved, the INSTEON spec calls out extended message packets. I think the original white papers are still available to the public at Insteon.net. Some people like to argue that the extended messaging part is an enhancement to the original spec. I read the original spec very carefully, several times over, it in not an enhancement. The original devices were sold with this feature broken. Now you have I1 and I2 devices, that opens up a whole new can of worms because the I1 devices cannot repeat the I2 extended messages, they see it as invalid packets (noise). The original RF to Power line devices are not 'compatible' with the newer devices because of this. I would have needed to buy the newer RF devices to be able to use the Remotes and motion detectors and to repeat extended message packets.

With Z-Wave, at least, before a device is granted the logo, it is tested by a third party not involved with the design or manufacturing of the device. This helps keep people honest and is a good idea overall as a bit of protocol QC.

Ken

Edit added:

There are people selling Z-Wave stuff without the Z-Wave logo, it is sort of a buyer beware world. Also as an added FYI, I am using the HS Z-Troller which is a firmware upgradeable controller. I have upgraded it twice so far as the one I have was one of the first group shipped. I cannot speak for others, but HS seems to be doing a good job of keeping the thing up to date.

Also FYI all INSTEON white papers link I'm a little surprised that they still have it available. Good for them.

k

 

[BLH]

Yes it is still there along with the outdated; unrevised SDK Documentation from a few years back.