Is hardwired lighting control still the way to go?

[picta]

I put in UPB and have no regrets for doing it, just add a repeater and use repeater capable switches. Works perfectly. Hardwiring just isn't necessary anymore. Maybe at one time it was, but things change. There was a time when all networks were wired. In the last few years, Wi-Fi has gotten so reliable and fast, that really isn't needed either.

Ano, I don't think you quite appreciate the difference between HA working 100% of the time versus 80% or even 95%. If you wish to have automation that is installed once and used for at least a decade with only minor maintenence, the hard-wired is the only way to go. UPB is a great technology, but it does not work in 100% of cases, it also depends on specifics of the house. And you can also only do certain things with it. I can program any button in my system to run a sceen that involves 100 lights set at various levels, all shades, audio, video etc. etc plus other sceens with one press, no skipping, no misses, just works, and works every time. Try that with any other lighting technology. Hard wiring is also great for everything else: its cheaper, more reliable and no need to change the batteries. In the long term hard wire wins on all counts, but up-front it usually appears more expensive. In my experience with almost all kinds of HA technology I found that the more devices you add to a wired set-up, the better the automation becomes, but the opposite is true with wireless after some small threshold, like 50 devices.

 

[dima]

Wow, thank you all for so many replies, I appreciate all the feedback.
 
Regarding my plans, a DIY-friendly system is a must as I can't imagine being in a position where I have to pay someone every time I want to change my configuration Reliability is at the very top of the list because if my lights work < 100% of the time, my wife will beat me with various objects around the house I'm a bit worried about the non-hard-wired solutions in that regard, and the feedback seems to be mixed on that as well
 
Regarding the size of the project, we have a ~2900 sqft house.  By my last count, there will be about 50-60 loads max, and about 30-35 of them need to be centrally controlled. I don't think there's a point in hooking up a closet light with an occupancy switch to the lighting control, seems like a waste
 
I wish that centralite panels were a bit more dense as it may be hard to find enough wall space to dedicate to the panels. For those with centralite, how do you handle interfacing to a phone or tablet? Centralite -> HAI -> ???
 
Anyone out there with Loxone experience that can comment on their reliability?
 
Thanks again all for all your prompt responses

 

[Desert_AIP]

Usually needs an actual "installer" to make changes.
Not always though.

This is what is was thinking of vis a vis Centralite.

I didn't mean the system wasn't configurable, just that it may be restricted to an installer to make changes.

 

[zenix]

Regarding my plans, a DIY-friendly system is a must as I can't imagine being in a position where I have to pay someone every time I want to change my configuration Reliability is at the very top of the list because if my lights work < 100% of the time, my wife will beat me with various objects around the house I'm a bit worried about the non-hard-wired solutions in that regard, and the feedback seems to be mixed on that as well

 
Take a look at Lutron Caseta and Lutron RadioRA 2. Both can be a good option for your project.

 

[ano]

Ano, I don't think you quite appreciate the difference between HA working 100% of the time versus 80% or even 95%. If you wish to have automation that is installed once and used for at least a decade with only minor maintenence, the hard-wired is the only way to go. UPB is a great technology, but it does not work in 100% of cases, it also depends on specifics of the house. And you can also only do certain things with it. I can program any button in my system to run a sceen that involves 100 lights set at various levels, all shades, audio, video etc. etc plus other sceens with one press, no skipping, no misses, just works, and works every time. Try that with any other lighting technology. Hard wiring is also great for everything else: its cheaper, more reliable and no need to change the batteries. In the long term hard wire wins on all counts, but up-front it usually appears more expensive. In my experience with almost all kinds of HA technology I found that the more devices you add to a wired set-up, the better the automation becomes, but the opposite is true with wireless after some small threshold, like 50 devices.

UPB with a repeater has been 100% here over the powerline.  The only problem I have seen with UPB was with applications that don't correctly pace the UPB signals over the PIM.  CQC was a big offender there. My Leviton Omni Pro II does queue up commands, but I haven't tested its limits. 
 
Many types of wireless are also very reliable if deployed correctly. Zigbee, for example, has been 100% reliable, and it definitely better the MORE devices you have. Just having a few can be iffy. Whether you realize it or not most utilities use Zigbee to read your electric meter. I use it for locks, some lighting, and thermostats.
 
Older wireless systems are not so robust, but they still are pretty reliable if installed with care. GE wireless sensors, for security, for example, maybe will have a sensor problem every year or two, but i have 25 sensors, so that isn't bad. I'm going to use wireless for drapes/blinds but its too early to tell if that will be reliable.

 

[tmbrown97]

I like to play devil's advocate... so none of this is intended to sway one way or the other.
 
First off, I have UPB - and I put it in the 100% reliability box.  Sure there was a time during installation when I had to do a little tweaking, but outside that it's been 100% - never missing a beat.  I installed UPB because I moved into a big house with like 80+ light switches - and the routine to shut off the downstairs to head up meant walking in circles to hit so many light switches in like 12 places.  After UPB, it's a single button every night.  In addition, I did go ahead and automate closets and small spaces - because I have the "Downstairs off" button; a "goodnight" button (gets the water closet, my closet, etc); the "upstairs off" button; the "All Off" which triggers after the alarm's exit countdown expires... it's good for saving energy and shutting everything down.
 
Regarding controlling other devices - you can do it via UPB... my landscape lights and my fireplace are UPB controlled directly... and if you have any sort of HA system running, it can see the UPB link activation and do anything you want - from turning on your stereo, closing the blinds, arming the security system, etc.  It doesn't take much to translate.  Even here I use a BraveSirRobbin's X10RF super antenna to give me great range and use some of the cheapo $5 X10RF motion sensors, stick on buttons, etc - and run them through the free Elve as a translator to control my UPB lights.  It's really quite flexible.  I also have lights on closet doors and other places that turn on/off based on security events (hall closet opens, the security system turns on the closet light; garage door opens, overhead lights turn on - man doors or large doors... open side gate or back door, exterior lights come on).  Don't think control is limited...
 
And - another point to consider...  the market share for hardwired systems is a tiny fraction of the market share for retrofit systems - especially with how these things have taken off lately thanks to "IoT" and ubiquitous smartphone access... so naturally when there is development and integration, it's focused where the biggest bang for the buck can be found - focused on systems with the largest install base.  When choosing any system, wired or wireless - be sure to check compatibility with other systems.  Personally when I made the choice to go with Elk, I then worked out from there seeing what it was compatible with.
 
I'm sure wired is the best way to go... for wireless, i like RadioRa2 - if planned from the start...  for retrofit, I like UPB because it's by far the most flexible retrofit solution IMO.  Using UPB I was able to overcome some horrible switch arrangement dictated by California's Title 24 and make things work in a way that's useful and logical - making my switches control what I want them to, regardless of what they're wired to.  I wouldn't change a thing, other than maybe a higher-end look and feel of Simply Automated switches - but then again, I like their price compared to others.

 

[LarrylLix]

Wired could be the most reliable for what you install but ask any HA enthusiast if their system was ever static for more than a year. Did any of us know what is to come or what we would add five years from now? Then what? Rip out dry-wall and run a few new wires? Did anybody install a wired HA system based on RS-232. How is that going today?
 
Insteon runs a dual mesh networking system, using simultaneous RF and powerline, with checkbacks and retries. Some are complaining over 500 feet to their dock is unreliable though. It doesn't get much more reliable than that after the initial quirks are eliminated.
 
 
As an analogy, If you think wired is the only way to go, try shutting off all Wi-Fi devices in your home and only use wired Ethernet.

 

[Dean Roddey]

UPB with a repeater has been 100% here over the powerline.  The only problem I have seen with UPB was with applications that don't correctly pace the UPB signals over the PIM.  CQC was a big offender there. My Leviton Omni Pro II does queue up commands, but I haven't tested its limits. 

 
To be fair, it was the UPB driver, not CQC, a driver which wasn't written by us.

 

[Dean Roddey]

Wired could be the most reliable for what you install but ask any HA enthusiast if their system was ever static for more than a year. Did any of us know what is to come or what we would add five years from now? Then what? Rip out dry-wall and run a few new wires? Did anybody install a wired HA system based on RS-232. How is that going today?
 
Insteon runs a dual mesh networking system, using simultaneous RF and powerline, with checkbacks and retries. Some are complaining over 500 feet to their dock is unreliable though. It doesn't get much more reliable than that after the initial quirks are eliminated.

 
The difference really is that hardwired systems really just work once installed, whereas consumer level non-wired systems may or may not work for any given person. Some people just never can get them to work right, given their particular environment/setup, while other people have no problems with them. And you won't really know which of those groups you are in until you try it, and if it's mesh based you have to ante up a fair bit to find out as well. A system which has its own 'private channel' just doesn't have to worry about something else interfering with it. In particular if you are installing systems for customers, you want something that will not be affected if they install some new device in the home, because it'll be you that has to prove it's due to something they did.
 
Even depending on the wired network, though our product does, can be a problem sometimes, because of this same issue. You can get it all working right, then something changes and things go awry. Wireless even more so. Some folks set up a completely different network for the automation system for this reason. Anything that reduces cross talk will probably (in general though not necessarily in a specific installation) improve reliability.
 
But a big difference is that, more often than not, hardwired systems (and high endy wireless like RA2) are designed from the root to be integrated into automation systems and usually tend to be better at it, whereas for many consumer systems it's an afterthought or not nearly as well thought out. In this context quality of integration is just as important as reliability of the actual lighting control medium.

 

[pete_c]

Note that historically I have mentioned that like any communications media; the more that is between the device (IE: the transport layer) being controlled and the controller the more you get away from the sure bet of 100% communications. 
 
I had a choice to prewire LV for HV on new construction and I did not.  Post contruction home I just went with powerline (X10, then Insteon then UPB).
 
So personally here went to powerline on steroids defined as UPB.  It does work for me 100% of the time now.
 
I still have legacy X10 and gave it a boost of sorts making it 100% by using Jeff Volp's reinvention of X10.
 
I am still on the fence relating to wireless and wireless hybrid powerline no matter who does what with it. 
 
It is still RF and RF is RF is RF. 
 
RF can be proactively or passively blocked and the only way to date around this is to just have more RF no matter who does it whether it is inexpensive or expensive.

 

[mikefamig]

UPB has been 100% here for 6 -8 months. I had a problem with a noisy coffee pot which I had to add a filter to and I had trouble with UPB signals crashing into each other when I programmed them incorrectly in the M1 but is is perfect since I corrected those two problems.
 
Mike.

 

[dima]

Thank you for the feedback. I am in fact a little concerned with non-standard wiring, but I want the functionality I looked at UPB but was concerned that I'll never be the end of filtering things here and there. If I find that the fridge is noisy, how do i get behind my built-in, fully integrated fridge to filter it out? I can't
 
Some UPB questions for the UPB folks.
 
What do you use to control your UPB installs?
 
Is it possible to have scene switches on UPB?
 
Is it possible to configure a UPB switch to not control the load it's wired to but instead be a scene switch (if necessary)?
 
What would you do from a fresh wiring start to get a house ready for UPB?
 
I got some basic pieces from Loxone (miniserver, dimmer extension, 4 button switch) and a Cree LED downlight from Home Depot to play with a few days ago, and so far I really like it. The config software is a bit funky, but once you get the hang of it it is pretty damn powerful. I turned a light into an dusk-dawn automatically timed light with a few mouse clicks, it was pretty slick. The default dimmer button config is a click to on, hold to dim, double click to full power. Again, cute. Is it fair to assume there's something like this for UPB? If so, what do you guys use?
 
Thanks in advance.
 
D

 

[Neurorad]

My built-in, integrated fridge has a grill above it, hiding the compressor and coils, and the outlet.

That reminds me, I need to vacuum those coils again soon.

 

[mikefamig]

Thank you for the feedback. I am in fact a little concerned with non-standard wiring, but I want the functionality I looked at UPB but was concerned that I'll never be the end of filtering things here and there. If I find that the fridge is noisy, how do i get behind my built-in, fully integrated fridge to filter it out? I can't
 
Some UPB questions for the UPB folks.
 
What do you use to control your UPB installs?

I use my Elk M1 for programmed control of UPB devices.
 

Is it possible to have scene switches on UPB?

 
All switches are scene switches with UPB. Each and every switch has to be programmed using upstart software. Once a scene is defined you can tell any switch to transmit that scene and then tell any device to receive it when it is transmitted.
 

Is it possible to configure a UPB switch to not control the load it's wired to but instead be a scene switch (if necessary)?

 
Some yes, some no, so yes if you buy the correct type switch.
 

What would you do from a fresh wiring start to get a house ready for UPB?

 
I don't think that there is any special requirement except that each device has a line, neutral and ground wire to it.
 
 

I got some basic pieces from Loxone (miniserver, dimmer extension, 4 button switch) and a Cree LED downlight from Home Depot to play with a few days ago, and so far I really like it. The config software is a bit funky, but once you get the hang of it it is pretty damn powerful. I turned a light into an dusk-dawn automatically timed light with a few mouse clicks, it was pretty slick. The default dimmer button config is a click to on, hold to dim, double click to full power. Again, cute. Is it fair to assume there's something like this for UPB? If so, what do you guys use?
 
Thanks in advance.
 
D

 

[mikefamig]

I think that you can learn what you need to know at Simply Automated web site
 
http://www.simply-automated.com/index.php