longer range/phoneline ethernet

[sprdave]

Thanks for the replys, sorry I havent been able to look here for a few days, and still looking through it.

The phoneline from the house to shop is ours (house to road is utility). Digging in fibre or anything isn't an option. Startech extender looks like what I was thinking. A little more $$ than I hoped but not bad.

The wireless option sounds interesting though. It's a (single) row of pine trees to get through. Straight distance is 600-700feet. There is a couple metal buildings at the shop end....does that affect it, if the buildings aren't directly between? (to the side and behind the antenna). Partly because it would be nice to connect the barn as well, which is about 500feet from the house, different direction (north instead of west). Possibly line-of-sight, maybe a tree or two in the way.

Would something multi-point to the two points work or be practical, or since Im trying to shot through trees it needs to be two seperate point-point connections?

It is mainly for a camera or two, to check animals, etc...possibly internet, nothing really high bandwidth. I haven't looked into the cameras yet though.

Does the Ubiquiti Nano bridge http://www.cyberguys.com/product-details/?productid=48078 have everything to just plug in a ethernet cable from a LAN port on a router (basically just extends the ethernet cable)?

 

[tmbrown97]

Yeah, the nanobridge is basically a nicely packaged bridge... but if you're thinking about connecting both buildings, then a point-to-multipoint setup would be a better idea. If you were looking from the house, about what kind of spread do you think you'd need to cover both buildings? Think in degrees... 30-degrees? 90? 120? The NanoStation Loco's can do PTMP and have about a 60-degree beamwidth; for more than that you have to either use multiple devices or go to a rocket and get a 90 or 120 degree antenna

The pine trees aren't ideal, but if you can shoot between them vs. trying to shoot through the trunk, you'll have a much better shot. Placement is key - just a few feet to either side can make a big difference.

I'm in the middle of a pretty decent deployment with Ubiquiti gear covering locations all around a 2300 acre property doing PTMP using the 5Ghz Rockets with 120 degree sector antennas atop a tower and a mix of Nanostations and Nanostation Loco's, then using a rocketbridge to backhaul to the main building where the internet comes in... specifically for cameras and wifi coverage throughout the property... But I was able to throw a tower at the top of the property to avoid trees; however the system I'm pulling out was handful of 2.4ghz 45mb PTP links with no fresnel zone clearance, shooting through weeds and trees and skimming the top of a hill - it wasn't the most reliable but it worked for about 8 years.

 

[tmbrown97]

I'm curious to see which way you go - please keep us updated!

 

[sprdave]

I'm curious to see which way you go - please keep us updated!

I've been occupied with other things lately... Not sure if anything will happen - in the thinking stage.

The spread from the house is a good 90degrees - probably about 95.
The rocket (for the 120degree spread) looks like a separate radio and antenna, am I correct? And would it be less "powerful" (to shoot through trees) than doing the nanobridge point-to-point?

The other option would be to put the multi-point on the barn and the spread would be about 60degrees. Which might be an option too, especially when we are looking to get fixed wireless internet, and that may have to go on the barn to get line-of-sight to the ISP.

 

[tmbrown97]

If you have 90 degrees to work with, I'd go with a rocket M and the 120-degree sector; but that is a little more expensive - about $200 for that radio/antenna; then a NanoStation Loco at both endpoints. The sector will have much more spread than a nanobridge; the nanobridge has a much tighter beam for less interference, but that could have a negative affect if there's interference. Having the wider/sloppier beamwidth of the sector should help you get through the obstructions, and since you're not going 100ft up in a dense metropolis, the interference is most likely a non-issue.

Honestly it doesn't matter that much where the ISP connection is; it's best if it's generally one hop away, but radios are so quick - moreso than your broadband connection. If you run file sharing or anything like that, it's best to have your multipoint radio there. Each time a radio has to repeat a signal you lose about 50% speed, so if you needed to go from the shop to the barn to the house, you're losing 50% speed... ONE of your links is going to be subject to this; if the house has the Rocket and you try to access resources in the barn from the shop, you'll deal with repeating (radio at the house hears the packet come in from the shop, then must retransmit to the barn, so twice the time taken). For internet this is no big deal, but if you're doing anything more bandwidth intensive, it's worth keeping that in mind.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[tmbrown97]

I just ordered a Picostation AP to see if I can improve my signal.

Wuench, I was just rereading this thread and saw this part... Did the Pico do what you wanted?

The Pico is a great product for what it is - I have a couple and I've helped several people set them up over the last year or two... That said, I've learned more over that time and new products have come to market. The Pico is great and advertises N speeds, but it's kind of a lie - it's a single chain device (single polarity RF), and N speeds are dependent on MIMO (multiple antennas w/diversity); so the max speed of a Pico is ~65mb, and it may in some cases have trouble hitting your device. Because of the single polarity, if your phone is oriented flat or sideways that can have an impact on signal quality; same as rotating your ipad into landscape vs. portrait.

A better option that has only been out a very short time is anything in the Ubiquiti UniFi offering. They have an indoor smoke-detector style (in both normal and long range versions) as well as an outdoor model that has a couple omni-directional antennas, covering both horizontal and vertical planes, which will dramatically improve performance. I switched a lot of my stuff over to that and the performance is amazing. I even covered a 30-unit/2 building apartment complex using 5 of the UAP-LR's and the complex is absolutely loving it (replaced a horribly-slopped together system of 17AP's in the ceiling - long story). The only potential downside is that you have to run their controller software to perform the config, but it only has to be running for the config or to collect stats; then it can be shut off; that said, it's the easiest wifi system in the world - hands down, easiest - up and running in 30 seconds; supports multiple SSID's (guest mode, normal) bandwidth throttling, even pay-per-use portals if you wanna go crazy.

Sorry for the long dissertation, but I've done so much more and learned so much more with wifi over the last year or so... and these products will maximize performance and availability. But, don't get me wrong - I'm still installing 6 Pico's next week - but mainly because the budget was set before the UAP-Outdoor came out and I don't want to eat the difference in cost.

 

[wuench]

I am coming from a dual band netgear AP with internal antenna's so throughput wasn't my primary concern. I knew I would lose my 5GHz radio. I really was more interested in expanding my signal range. But I did get it in and test it. I installed DDWRT on it (which required a $20 license), and I found the signal was about 3-5db better and more stable, adjusting power levels and tuning in DDWRT had no effect. With my current router the signal fluctuates a lot. But, I am back on the Netgear for now because I haven't had time to copy my complicated ddwrt configuration over.

I saw the Unifi and really like the look, I just had the impression the external antenna was a better option. I am not so concerned about coverage, I am trying to do proximity detection for my IPhone and with the NetGear it takes about 1 min of sitting in my driveway before the IPhone joins the network. My installation was on that side of the house, so I was hoping for an earlier detection. I am thinking about mounting it high on a wall, so the unifi would be a better look. I'll take another look at that and see what people are saying.

And I don't care about the legality of what I am doing, in my area all wifi channels have at least 2 aps on them, so I would really like to find a way to crank up my power, but it looks like even DDWRT throttles you to comply with regulations.

Anyway, it's mostly just playing around. The IPhone delay may be a software thing, so I may have to find another solution like Jailbreaking and somehow having it send a message out like Tasker can do on Android vs. trying to detect it's presence.

 

[tmbrown97]

Sounds like fun... not sure why you put DD-WRT on the pico (to be fair, I don't get the point of DD-WRT at all); at least for me I only use them as dumb AP's and let the routers do they're supposed to do... you can even run side by side with your existing router by using alternate channels.

The UniFi outdoor model does have external antennas like the Pico (two non-polaraized omni's); if you really want to crank power, apparently you can hook the airmax 13dbi dual-polarity antenna directly to the uap-outdoor (or just use the rocket M2) and get unbelievable coverage h34r: but it's about $300 and that's DEFINITELY getting into illegal EIRP... but I'm dying to test it! I'll probably put one up on a 2300 acre property just for fun to see how far it covers.

 

[sprdave]

If you have 90 degrees to work with, I'd go with a rocket M and the 120-degree sector; but that is a little more expensive - about $200 for that radio/antenna; then a NanoStation Loco at both endpoints. The sector will have much more spread than a nanobridge; the nanobridge has a much tighter beam for less interference, but that could have a negative affect if there's interference. Having the wider/sloppier beamwidth of the sector should help you get through the obstructions, and since you're not going 100ft up in a dense metropolis, the interference is most likely a non-issue.

Honestly it doesn't matter that much where the ISP connection is; it's best if it's generally one hop away, but radios are so quick - moreso than your broadband connection. If you run file sharing or anything like that, it's best to have your multipoint radio there. Each time a radio has to repeat a signal you lose about 50% speed, so if you needed to go from the shop to the barn to the house, you're losing 50% speed... ONE of your links is going to be subject to this; if the house has the Rocket and you try to access resources in the barn from the shop, you'll deal with repeating (radio at the house hears the packet come in from the shop, then must retransmit to the barn, so twice the time taken). For internet this is no big deal, but if you're doing anything more bandwidth intensive, it's worth keeping that in mind.

I hope that makes sense.

I think I understand what you're saying, that if the "task" requires going from a Nanostation to Rocket M to Nanostation it loses speed. It what way, "ping" or bandwidth or both?

Ideally the isp connection would go on the house, along with say the Rocket M, and Nanostations on the shop and barn. The house would be the biggest use, probably most/all of the internet use. The shop and barn is mainly for cameras at this time. The problem is the house isn't going to have line-of-sight for the isp, and the barn may have or require a shorter tower, so would be more feasible there. Which then maybe makes more sense to have the multipoint on the barn as well?? Or would it still be better with the isp and a camera or two on the barn on a Nanostation, and the multipoint on the house?? (would that work somehow with the internet and cameras both on a Nanostation).

Is having the isp on the barn and then wireless again to the house going to create measurable lag? We want to be able to use VOIP at the house.

 

[pete_c]

sprdave,

I'm curious about your ISP connection to the main house. Is it wireless?

The reason I ask is that last fall (started earlier) I helped a friend with his ISP connection on his farm. He built a new home near his old home and wanted internet in the new home.

He didn't have wireless to his ISP availability to the new home. I suggested initially that we just utilize wireless from his old home to his new home initially. After checking though we were at around 300 feet or so house to house; so I had him bury a cable which worked out.

I still though am suggesting that he put a short tower up on an apartment building he owns in the nearby town with Comcast cable / Internet and do his own wireless from his new house to the apartment building flat roof for "better" internet.

 

[tmbrown97]

Hope it wasn't too confusing - what I was trying to cover was that if a radio has to receive the signal from the barn and send it to the shop, it's having to do double-work which cuts measurable bandwidth in half (think if the multipoint was on the house, and you were in the barn viewing a cam feed from the shop, that's double-work for the rocket in the middle. It has to receive from one AP then send to the next, which will in turn doubles latency and halves bandwidth.

All things considered though - RF is very efficient - with the right setup and sufficient signal quality, VOIP shouldn't be an issue at all. Also Ubiquiti has some QoS built in to prioritize voice and video - it's transparent and can't be adjusted - but it's there when you use AirMax mode (their proprietary TDMA mode).

You should be fine if the internet connection comes in at the barn... though you will have that repeater effect cutting internet speed at the shop in half if the rocket is at the house. That's how WISP's do it - they get bandwidth somewhere else, then shoot it via wireless to their tower on a dedicated link, then broadcast to your house via their sectors.

Also just a note for Wuench - I was playing around today - I put a Hawking 9dbi Omni antenna I had laying around on a Pico M2HP (which was also just laying around) outside my office window (upstairs) then went for a walk. I got 680ft away and still had a signal on my iPhone; did a internet speed test and still got 8mb (I get 10-12 at home). It's illegal EIRP but a fun test regardless.

 

[sprdave]

sprdave,

I'm curious about your ISP connection to the main house. Is it wireless?

The reason I ask is that last fall (started earlier) I helped a friend with his ISP connection on his farm. He built a new home near his old home and wanted internet in the new home.

He didn't have wireless to his ISP availability to the new home. I suggested initially that we just utilize wireless from his old home to his new home initially. After checking though we were at around 300 feet or so house to house; so I had him bury a cable which worked out.

I still though am suggesting that he put a short tower up on an apartment building he owns in the nearby town with Comcast cable / Internet and do his own wireless from his new house to the apartment building flat roof for "better" internet.

We don't have broadband to the house currently. Wired (DSL, cable) isn't out this far from town, so we're looking at fixed wireless ISP. There are towers 5km and 8km from here but no line-of-sight to house, maybe not to the barn either, but the barn is a higher building at higher elevation. Haven't had the ISP out yet for survey.
Interesting you mention doing own wireless from town....I was trying to think of someone I knew well enough to do that, since town with dsl/cable is 5km away...It would be better internet and cheaper.......But probably won't happen.

Hope it wasn't too confusing - what I was trying to cover was that if a radio has to receive the signal from the barn and send it to the shop, it's having to do double-work which cuts measurable bandwidth in half (think if the multipoint was on the house, and you were in the barn viewing a cam feed from the shop, that's double-work for the rocket in the middle. It has to receive from one AP then send to the next, which will in turn doubles latency and halves bandwidth.

It's clearer to me now...it can only do so much overall so it's got to split it's capacity two-ways. What kind of latency would the one link from the barn to house have, vs having the isp right on the house?

I'll try a diagram of what Im wondering, how I would connect it all? Particularly connecting camera(s) at the barn end with the ISP (probably would be simpler if the ISP was at the house)

Barn
ISP - (cat5) - (WAN)router(LAN) - (cat5) - camera
(LAN) - (cat5) - Rocket M
|
(wireless)
|
house
Nanostation - (cat5) - (WAN)router/switch?(LAN) VOIP adaptor
(LAN) Computer
(LAN) Computer

|
(wireless)
|
Shop
Nanostation - (cat5) - (WAN)router/switch?(LAN) camera
(LAN) Computer/other


Or maybe it would be better to have another Nanostation for the barn camera, and plug the ISP into the Rocket M without a router??

 

[tmbrown97]

So just thinking about this... a Rocket is pretty expensive compared to a nanostation - it would probably be smarter to skip the rocket with the sector and just put two nano's in its place - at $60-90 each for two that's still cheaper than a rocket with a sector, and it would eliminate the repeating issue giving you the best overall throughput.

in a short link like you're talking about, using 3 or 4 nanostation locos would be dirt cheap and would be pretty low latency overall - i don't have any numbers to give you offhand (gimme 3 weeks) but it should be barely noticeable.

Your wiring plan above seems fine - just plug everything into a switch, and use WDS-AP/WDS-Station modes and you'll have a full Layer 2 network that's pretty transparent. Your router should probably be wherever your internet connection is (I say probably because I have done some creative things with VLAN's in the past to allow the router to exist anywhere).

One other tip - if height is an issue, Channel Vision makes a 50ft telescoping mast for like $250... or you can easily get roof-mount 10-15ft masts - check out SolidSignal.com for the best prices on some of those options.

 

[sprdave]

So an update to this...

We had the wireless ISP out here for the survey, and the house is a no-go as expected, the cow barn was marginal, but another shed/barn He got a good signal.

The most important is to get internet to the house (from shed). Some other applications are to link the solar array (inverter) for monitoring/data, cow barn for camera, and camp for camera and/or occasional internet access. There is nothing wanted in the shed.

Some pictures:

Sketch

upload images
Cow Barn/house

free image hosting

House/solar (zoomed)

free picture hosting

Camp (zoomed)

jpg upload

Shed (ISP antenna - other pictures taken from here)

image host

From the shed, the spread from the camp to cow barn is about 90 degrees. From the camp to house is about 55 degrees. The cow barn and solar is clear sight about 100 feet and 200 feet respectively. The house has two mounting location options, with a single row of trees, although one location is almost in-between a maple and pine tree. About 400 feet. The camp has a row of tree(s), about 600 feet. Keep in mind the leaves are not fully out yet.

How would you go about this? The one thought was the Ubiquiti Rocket with sector on shed for a multipoint. Then have nanobridges/nanostations/nanostation locos on the points.

The other way that was mentioned was to use multiple nanostations instead of the sector. How would that be hooked up, would it need a router/switch at the shed to hook up the two nanostations? Or would there be a router needed in the shed anyway for the isp to connect to? or could the isp be connected directly to a rocket or nanostation).

PS if you can't see the pics or have a better way to post them let me know!

 

[tmbrown97]

Piece of cake! Depending on goals - bandwidth/cost/accessibility, that dictates the best way to go.

Best flexibility/performance - either a nanostation or a rocket w/120° sector at the barn where the internet is installed. You can install that as a router - it'll take care of dhcp, routing, etc - and not require anything additional. Any place you want internet, use a NanoStation Loco pointed at the main one, then either plug it into your equipment or use another AP plugged into it for client access. For the base, a rocket will perform better, but a nanostation is cheaper and will do the trick.

If you want to sacrifice some speed but gain having wifi everywhere at minimal cost, you can use 20mhz channels and lose airmax - but you'll have an AP that can do client access throughout the property - and you can bridge it into the house and any other buildings with another AP when you need increased performance inside the structure.

how much do you want to spend? What are your priorities?