longer range/phoneline ethernet

[sprdave]

Piece of cake! Depending on goals - bandwidth/cost/accessibility, that dictates the best way to go.

Best flexibility/performance - either a nanostation or a rocket w/120° sector at the barn where the internet is installed. You can install that as a router - it'll take care of dhcp, routing, etc - and not require anything additional. Any place you want internet, use a NanoStation Loco pointed at the main one, then either plug it into your equipment or use another AP plugged into it for client access. For the base, a rocket will perform better, but a nanostation is cheaper and will do the trick.

So could I have 2 nanostation M's on the "ISP shed" (since they do 60 degrees each) and somehow have them connected to the ISP without a router, or because there is 2 of them I would need or be better with a router?
Is the Loco M just a lower power/cheaper version of the regular nanostation? Do you figure that would be lots for the house and camp?
2.4ghz vs 5.8ghz? Im thinking 2.4 would be better for penetrating the trees, and the 2.4 nanostations are a little cheaper too...but the sector antenna (if we went that way) is a lot more money in 2.4.

If you want to sacrifice some speed but gain having wifi everywhere at minimal cost, you can use 20mhz channels and lose airmax - but you'll have an AP that can do client access throughout the property - and you can bridge it into the house and any other buildings with another AP when you need increased performance inside the structure.

how much do you want to spend? What are your priorities?

Of course He(we) want to keep the cost minimal. The priority is the internet to the house. The package is 3mbps, I guess there is always a possibility of upgrading to 5mbps or so. So we want to keep any degrading of internet as minimal as possible, particularly the possibility of doing VOIP.

The other applications are just sidelines, nice things to pick up while we're at it. Some sort of web/surveillance type of camera so they can see when someone arrives/leaves, nothing fancy.

When you say wifi everywhere, you mean accessing it on a laptop or something...How well/range would that pick up on a laptop or wifi phone without having these antennas at the client end? I don't see them wanting it everywhere, they don't even have a laptop, although a wifi phone around the property might be neat...but unlikely it would happen. Would that be the same equipment, just turn airmax off?

 

[sprdave]

Im also wondering if it would be better to put a router/firewall at the shed anyway....for protection/security sort of reasons?? Any recommendations on a unit?

Or is that getting too much equipment, especially with a router(or switch) with VOIP ATA at the house, and affect our internet?

Basically how would you connect this up?

 

[tmbrown97]

OK - so starting a little smaller and giving yourself something to grow into...

I'd start with a Nanostation M2 at the ISP barn. Don't worry about the 60° spec - radio waves don't much care about spec sheets - even one that says 60 degrees you can get at 180 if you're close enough - and you are. Just today I was picking up the back-side of a fully shielded nanobridge - 2000' behind it... in theory the shielding should've never let that happen, but RF doesn't care about theory either.

From there, you can go two routes... if you use AirMax, then this is only a PTP/PTMP (point to point/point to multipoint) network - meaning only other Ubnt antennas can talk to it. That's not bad - their proprietary TDMA is good at balancing timeslots and implementing QoS, as well as some user-defined prioritization. But - without Airmax, you'll automatically have wifi coverage that pretty much blankets the lot as shown, and you'll still be able to put a NSLoco at the house on the outside, connected to another AP inside and a switch for hardwired PC's/wireless.

Since this way you'd only have one "sending" device at the barn, I'd start with using it as a router unless you need more features - it can handle both just fine unless you need more advanced tricks. But to answer your question, it wouldn't hurt either... it's not going to add too much overhead or anything.

And to answer your other question - the NS Loco is exactly that - a lower-cost nanostation; it's got lower gain, slower processor (lower capacity), and doesn't have the magic 2nd ethernet port. That 2nd ethernet port could be a topic of it's own, but I'll summarize in a min.

The best part about Ubnt gear is that it's all interchangeable - they all run the exact same OS - the differences between units are minor, and none of them matter with such short distances as under 1K feet. That means you can start with one thing today, then repurpose/rearrange gear all you want - there'll never be a wasted investment. If you go crazy in a year, you can swap the NS for a rocket and gain a 40% improvement in overall throughput (if you even need it). Otherwise, even though the Rocket is intended as the ISP *hub* device, a nanostation can fill the exact same role in a smaller environment.

So - I'd start with a nanostation at the ISP barn in router mode, probably in non-airmax mode - then at the house I'd "join" the AP in WDS Station mode as a client device, then bridge to another AP - maybe a picostation or nanostation loco inside the house as well - same SSID, different channel - this will basically give you awesome coverage on the whole property and inside the house; if you want coverage in the camp, copy the house setup. That'll be good for a while - if you start *really* taxing the setup and needing QoS, you can always turn airmax on and start segregating the network more.

Now - as far as that cool 2nd ethernet port - since the difference in cost between a nanostation and nanostation loco is about $20, this can get interesting. A NS has 2 ethernet ports, and if you're creative, you can use a single power supply to power two radios. It's a little weird at the moment - the software-configurable option doesn't work right, but Ubnt confirmed and I've personally confirmed the workaround - you use a 24V injector w/1Amp power - send it via the secondary port, and any radio connected to the primary port is automatically powered via the radio. This means you can run a single wire from power or inside a building to the radio - then daisy chain the backhaul radio to the client-access radio. Makes wiring very convenient.

If this adds more confusion, let me know - I'll tune it in from there. I know sometimes my posts get long and people have trouble keeping track of it all; if you need some over-the-phone consulting, I'd make myself available for you to work through the details.

 

[sprdave]

Thanks, I think I follow...for now...I might need more help/phone though to setup the software side....
Are we going to need a laptop to set this up? To be able to plug into at the physical locations, or can it all be done from the house end? We don't have one.

What I see on the spec sheet, the LocoM and NSM has the same processor/ram/flash... although the LocoM9 has more ram (which I wasn't looking at getting) . Do I have it right? Means the capacity/speed should be the same if the signal is good on the LocoM? And you figure a LocoM (2.4ghz) would be enough to go through a couple trees and have good signal?
Does two ethernet ports also mean 2 devices could be connected, like a camera and a computer?

So what Im thinking of doing is:
At the shed, mount a Nanostation M2 on the wall, and plug the ISP connection into that. Does that act as a "firewall"?

At the cow barn and solar, mount Loco M2's and plug in the camera and inverter respectively.

At the house, mount a Loco M2 and plug in a VOIP ATA like Cisco SPA122 and plug a switch into the ATA for the computers.

At the camp, mount a Loco M2 and plug in a switch for a camera and computer. Alternately Im thinking I should just use a Nanostation and plug the camera and computer into that.

Make sense?

Another part is power consumption. The specs are saying 8watts max for a nanostation, is that typical or is it usually much less. Im trying to size a UPS for the nanostation and ISP equipment at the shed to last a few hours.

And what would you do for ground/surge protection? Would you have a surge protector on the ethernet line from each antenna? Should there be a ground rod, etc?

 

[sprdave]

For surge, Ive seen the Tycon http://www.streakwave.com/Itemdesc.asp?ic=TP-ESP-100POE24

but the POE adapter with the nanostation says it has surge protection....should I do both?

 

[tmbrown97]

Are we going to need a laptop to set this up? To be able to plug into at the physical locations, or can it all be done from the house end? We don't have one.

It's perfectly doable to set these up ahead of time. You wouldn't even point them at each other - you just lay 'em around the room pointed away from each other and get everything connected up. The important settings to decide on is if you want them to perform better but only be able to talk to each other (Airmax On - Ubiquiti's proprietary TDMA) or if you want anything in the area to be able to connect to them, sacrificing some performance. I'd probably try the latter in your scenario first and see how it goes. The other important setting is that the main one will be in router mode, set up as Access Point WDS, and all others will be Station WDS in Bridge mode.

What I see on the spec sheet, the LocoM and NSM has the same processor/ram/flash... although the LocoM9 has more ram (which I wasn't looking at getting) . Do I have it right? Means the capacity/speed should be the same if the signal is good on the LocoM? And you figure a LocoM (2.4ghz) would be enough to go through a couple trees and have good signal?
Does two ethernet ports also mean 2 devices could be connected, like a camera and a computer?

Yup - you got that correct. I installed a few nanostations this week specifically because I wanted to connect 2 devices and didn't want a switch in the mix. The trees aren't much of an issue - everyone preaches that 2.4 can handle some foliage, 5.8 can't handle any - but I was installing a 5.8Ghz nanostation loco yesterday - with a tree completely blocking my of my tower that was nearly a half-mile away - at first I was worried I might not get a reliable signal, but I plugged in the power (via an inverter) in the back of my suburban (truck pointed at the tree blocking view of the tower, so whole car to go through, and tree) and with the thing laying face down in the truck it still had a great connection. Your tree line looked thin enough, and your distances are short enough, I doubt you'll have any issues at all.

So what Im thinking of doing is:
At the shed, mount a Nanostation M2 on the wall, and plug the ISP connection into that. Does that act as a "firewall"?

Yes - it has that option - it can be set as a router and have all the normal features a router would have. That is, if your ISP doesn't deliver CPE (premise equipment) that also acts as a router - if they do, then you'll just use bridge mode.

At the cow barn and solar, mount Loco M2's and plug in the camera and inverter respectively.

Yes

At the house, mount a Loco M2 and plug in a VOIP ATA like Cisco SPA122 and plug a switch into the ATA for the computers.

Plugging rest of the network into the ATA generally means the ATA is acting as a router and enabling some QoS and the computers would be behind that. I would try plugging a switch into the Loco, and connect the computers and phones at the same level first. If that doesn't work, it'd be time to look at turning on Airmax and getting the built-in QoS via the radios. Doing it at that level (computers behind ATA) only catches what's in the house - everything else around the property would be in front of the ATA, and that might even segment them so things don't talk to each other correctly. I'll look up the docs on that specific ATA when I have some more time.

At the camp, mount a Loco M2 and plug in a switch for a camera and computer. Alternately Im thinking I should just use a Nanostation and plug the camera and computer into that.

Either way works - as I mentioned above, I do that at times to avoid the cost of a switch... the radios are like $30 difference, which is less than a switch - but a switch gives you room for more equipment later. Then again, you might want a 3rd port to add another Wifi access point at the camp - I'm not sure, that's up to you.

Make sense?

So far.

Another part is power consumption. The specs are saying 8watts max for a nanostation, is that typical or is it usually much less. Im trying to size a UPS for the nanostation and ISP equipment at the shed to last a few hours.

I really can't say - I've never tested actual consumption - but I do frequent the WISP forums and everyone seems to size their UPS' based on the rated watts, so 8 watts there. Unfortunately standard UPSs are inefficient for this type of load but there aren't any affordable options for 1-2 radios; the ideal way is to skip the DC->AC->DC conversion and just hook 24V straight into the radios, but that's not easily accomplished.

And what would you do for ground/surge protection? Would you have a surge protector on the ethernet line from each antenna? Should there be a ground rod, etc?

In my neck of the woods, lightning damage is almost unheard of - I know that's not the case for many people though. Properly wiring these radios is crucial - buy a box of their ToughCable, either L1or L2, and a box of their connectors. This wire is called FTP - it's a foil-shielded twisted pair with a drain wire. When you crimp their ends on, the foil makes contact with the shielded housing of the connector, and the drain wire connects to a little stub on the connector. This ensures end-to-end shielding, and and ESD is discharged via earth ground by their power injector. Nothing else should be required unless you're adding super tall poles or anything like that.

When you get ready to do this, I'm also a reseller and could help you put together a package with all the best mounting equipment for each location, etc. The thing I have to warn you though is this stuff is *always* backordered. The only places that have it readily available are the most expensive options - generally 3rd or 4th level resellers. Be prepared for it to take a month from when you decide to pull the trigger to when you get your equipment - for that reason, I tend to buy extra.

 

[sprdave]

It's perfectly doable to set these up ahead of time. You wouldn't even point them at each other - you just lay 'em around the room pointed away from each other and get everything connected up. The important settings to decide on is if you want them to perform better but only be able to talk to each other (Airmax On - Ubiquiti's proprietary TDMA) or if you want anything in the area to be able to connect to them, sacrificing some performance. I'd probably try the latter in your scenario first and see how it goes. The other important setting is that the main one will be in router mode, set up as Access Point WDS, and all others will be Station WDS in Bridge mode.

I presume I can get the other settings and power levels from the house once they are connected?

Yup - you got that correct. I installed a few nanostations this week specifically because I wanted to connect 2 devices and didn't want a switch in the mix. The trees aren't much of an issue - everyone preaches that 2.4 can handle some foliage, 5.8 can't handle any - but I was installing a 5.8Ghz nanostation loco yesterday - with a tree completely blocking my of my tower that was nearly a half-mile away - at first I was worried I might not get a reliable signal, but I plugged in the power (via an inverter) in the back of my suburban (truck pointed at the tree blocking view of the tower, so whole car to go through, and tree) and with the thing laying face down in the truck it still had a great connection. Your tree line looked thin enough, and your distances are short enough, I doubt you'll have any issues at all.

The 2.4 locoM2's are cheaper anyway. The trees look thin now, but the leaves are not really out yet. Has to go through about 2 trees with full leaves.

Plugging rest of the network into the ATA generally means the ATA is acting as a router and enabling some QoS and the computers would be behind that. I would try plugging a switch into the Loco, and connect the computers and phones at the same level first. If that doesn't work, it'd be time to look at turning on Airmax and getting the built-in QoS via the radios. Doing it at that level (computers behind ATA) only catches what's in the house - everything else around the property would be in front of the ATA, and that might even segment them so things don't talk to each other correctly. I'll look up the docs on that specific ATA when I have some more time.

So using the ATA for QoS would just be redundant, if using the QoS on the Nanostations. The Nanostations would cover a computer in the house affecting someone using VOIP. I haven't got the ATA yet, so Im open for suggestions too.

In my neck of the woods, lightning damage is almost unheard of - I know that's not the case for many people though. Properly wiring these radios is crucial - buy a box of their ToughCable, either L1or L2, and a box of their connectors. This wire is called FTP - it's a foil-shielded twisted pair with a drain wire. When you crimp their ends on, the foil makes contact with the shielded housing of the connector, and the drain wire connects to a little stub on the connector. This ensures end-to-end shielding, and and ESD is discharged via earth ground by their power injector. Nothing else should be required unless you're adding super tall poles or anything like that.

Ya, being on the walls of the buildings and not on a tower or above the roof, you wouldn't think there would be much issue. I may do something on the house where it is on a chimney and more equipment connected downstream, but even then the second story and trees are higher. The biggest issue would be the ISP antenna, as they were talking a mast above the peak, and I don't know if they're doing anything.

When you get ready to do this, I'm also a reseller and could help you put together a package with all the best mounting equipment for each location, etc. The thing I have to warn you though is this stuff is *always* backordered. The only places that have it readily available are the most expensive options - generally 3rd or 4th level resellers. Be prepared for it to take a month from when you decide to pull the trigger to when you get your equipment - for that reason, I tend to buy extra.

I am interested. But I probably didn't mention that I'm in Canada (Ontario) so shipping could be the killer. I did come across a Canadian distributor www.ubnt.ca which is actually driveable from here, but the prices are some more than what Ive seen in the US. So it's up to you whether you want to put bother putting time into that as Im already taking a bunch of it here, thanks.

I also have noticed there is US and international models, do you know the difference?...Hopefully that doesn't change what we've discussed here, just thought of that..... And would the availability be the same?

 

[tmbrown97]

I presume I can get the other settings and power levels from the house once they are connected?

Yeah - just get 'em connected, then you can tweak the rest later. The trick is to adjust the stations first, then the base - so that when you change the base, the stations will reconnect.

The 2.4 locoM2's are cheaper anyway. The trees look thin now, but the leaves are not really out yet. Has to go through about 2 trees with full leaves.

at your distances I really doubt that'll be an issue.

So using the ATA for QoS would just be redundant, if using the QoS on the Nanostations. The Nanostations would cover a computer in the house affecting someone using VOIP. I haven't got the ATA yet, so Im open for suggestions too.

I'd have to check specifics - but what you don't want is it acting like any sort of router; and it's not as much that it'd be redundant, as it may cause issues because it'd be between the house and the rest of the property network. I run VOIP all day long and never notice quality issues even without QoS. I have everything necessary to support QoS, but have never bothered; I use Ooma and a SIP trunk.

Ya, being on the walls of the buildings and not on a tower or above the roof, you wouldn't think there would be much issue. I may do something on the house where it is on a chimney and more equipment connected downstream, but even then the second story and trees are higher. The biggest issue would be the ISP antenna, as they were talking a mast above the peak, and I don't know if they're doing anything.

Depends on what they're using; if you're gonna buy a UPS anyways, buy one with ethernet protection as well and run through there - but only if you can do so without screwing up a grounding chain like what's part of the ubiquiti radio system, and only use shielded cable.

I am interested. But I probably didn't mention that I'm in Canada (Ontario) so shipping could be the killer. I did come across a Canadian distributor www.ubnt.ca which is actually driveable from here, but the prices are some more than what Ive seen in the US. So it's up to you whether you want to put bother putting time into that as Im already taking a bunch of it here, thanks.

The advice is free of course - I don't mind helping - keeps me fresh. Margins are small so I'll look to see if it seems like it'd be worth it to either of us.

I also have noticed there is US and international models, do you know the difference?...Hopefully that doesn't change what we've discussed here, just thought of that..... And would the availability be the same?

Yeah - in the US, the FCC cracked down on ubiquiti because their radios relied on the honor system, which didn't work out so well - so now only US models are available here which have restricted frequencies blocked. You're eligible to use international versions, though I believe the laws/restrictions are basically the same otherwise. I'm not sure on availability - a few weeks ago I could get international versions all day long, but it seems those have sold out too.

 

[sprdave]

If you want to look into it... We'll need 2 nanostation M2's (more for the 2 ports, also make sure there is lots of signal, although probably overkill), 3 nanostation locoM2's, 5 wall mounts, possibly surge protector, and shielded cable....anything else?

For cable, how expensive is that cable? Is it worth trying to get the PoE adapter close to the entry and then run standard cat5e, or just run it indoors and put the adapter where convenient by other stuff. I can crimp regular cat5e, so if its the same (and my crimpers would work), I can do that, or I can measure the lengths for premade ones.

 

[sprdave]

Have you used Ubiquiti cameras (Aircam)? Are they any good? Or can I use any IP camera on the second port of the Nanostation and power it off the Nanostation's PoE? We would like nightvision, any recommends?

 

[tmbrown97]

Sorry - it looks like I missed your last post.

Their cable is very reasonable - not really much more than any other, and it provides the electrical shielding. Put the injector where it belongs and just run the cable - it comes in minimum 1000' boxes anyways! I have seen pre-made shielded cable, but not FTP and UV Rated... for that reason I'd just go with the toughcable; L1 should be fine. Be sure to use their connectors. And yes, your existing tools should work fine - I didn't need anything special.

I have some AirCams - they're not bad considering the price... but, their major lacking is in night-time performance... they don't have nor are they compatible with IR. They just don't work without light - either sunlight or other lighting.

The really important thing to understand is that Ubiquiti products are passive POE - they slap 12-24V on the spare pair. This is NOT traditional POE. That said, you might be able to find a camera that you can split the voltage off of and feed it to a camera, but that's getting tricky. It'd work with the Ubiquiti aircams as you suggested; for other cameras, you'd have to match the voltage of the camera (usually 12V) to the voltage of the Ubiquiti cams (12-24v) and ensure there's adequate amperage to feed both; then you could get a Passive POE Splitter and make sure the polarity is correct... if all that lines up, you can do it safely.