Remember, it's not a NO connection as in switch nomenclature. It is really a closed switch that opens when water flows. Perhaps the term "normal" is throwing you. Just ask yourself, and confirm with your meter, what is the switch doing right now, and what does the switch do when I bring the magnet close, power the relay, or get water to flow. I think you are safer that way. A lot of devices give you the option of a closed or open switch.v1rtu0s1ty said:
monitoring fire sprinkler system
- Thread starter v1rtu0s1ty
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v1rtu0s1ty
Senior Member
Yep, I will follow the newest diagram. Actually, that's the diagram that Potter recommended in the VSR-SF manual.rfdesq said:
Any time you are using a fire zone (initiating) to report an alarm condition it is always normally open. This means that a short is an alarm and an open circuit is a trouble condition. This of course is using an EOL resistor across the wires at the end of the circuit. The reason for this is that circuit is supervised and if by chance a heat source between the device and the panel melts the insulator, the wires will short and cause an alarm condition.
Perhaps an easier way to look at this is that in a normally closed loop (burglar alarm) a open circuit is an alarm condition and a short may be considered a trouble condition but could also be an alarm if using normally open and normally closed devices on the same loop. In a fire system a short is an alarm but a open circuit is a trouble condition. However each in its normal state a electrically the same. A burglar alarm circuit is typically a normally closed series circuit but can be normally open parallel circuit and a fire alarm is always a normally open parallel circuit but all devices are in series in the parallel loop. Supervisory fire alarm circuits are often an open or closed circuit but both are a trouble condition unless an open is supervisory and a short is trouble however both are treated as a trouble even though one is really a supervisory signal.
I'm so glad I could simplify this whole issue.
Perhaps an easier way to look at this is that in a normally closed loop (burglar alarm) a open circuit is an alarm condition and a short may be considered a trouble condition but could also be an alarm if using normally open and normally closed devices on the same loop. In a fire system a short is an alarm but a open circuit is a trouble condition. However each in its normal state a electrically the same. A burglar alarm circuit is typically a normally closed series circuit but can be normally open parallel circuit and a fire alarm is always a normally open parallel circuit but all devices are in series in the parallel loop. Supervisory fire alarm circuits are often an open or closed circuit but both are a trouble condition unless an open is supervisory and a short is trouble however both are treated as a trouble even though one is really a supervisory signal.
I'm so glad I could simplify this whole issue.
v1rtu0s1ty
Senior Member
Honestly, I got lost.
So once I have set up my wiring using the resistors on both ends(similar to the last diagram I posted), am I correct that I should select Supervisory on short #3?
Thanks!
So once I have set up my wiring using the resistors on both ends(similar to the last diagram I posted), am I correct that I should select Supervisory on short #3?
Thanks!
Sorry its all true but I must admit I was having fun.
Supervisory contacts are for monitoring things like valves that can turn off the supply of water or air pumps for dry systems. It means "something is not right and the system may not work" but don't send the fire department. You want a fire zone type without verification (for reseting smokes) An instant fire zone type will do. If this were a commercial fire panel you would have a "waterflow" zone type. This allows for a delay time if desired. By the way you should adjust the retard time to about 30 seconds. This allows normal changes in water pressure to occur without a false trip. The retard setting is usually a dial with "A" "B" "C" settings, B is typically 30 seconds.
Supervisory contacts are for monitoring things like valves that can turn off the supply of water or air pumps for dry systems. It means "something is not right and the system may not work" but don't send the fire department. You want a fire zone type without verification (for reseting smokes) An instant fire zone type will do. If this were a commercial fire panel you would have a "waterflow" zone type. This allows for a delay time if desired. By the way you should adjust the retard time to about 30 seconds. This allows normal changes in water pressure to occur without a false trip. The retard setting is usually a dial with "A" "B" "C" settings, B is typically 30 seconds.
v1rtu0s1ty
Senior Member
I remember the other day that before the bell rang it took 45 secs to 1 min. Is that what you are referring too? And also, when the bell rang, the tester or meter that I was using change the state too at the same time.
v1rtu0s1ty
Senior Member
gizzmo, I want to implement similar to how you stated it. I don't want to inform the central station if the wire was accidentally cut by me. I will only want to inform the central station if valve really was tripped. I'm assuming that the most recent wiring design/picture I posted will be sufficient for that requirement. Does ELK know the difference between the valve tripping and wire got loose or cut?
However, I still would like to know how I would set up the definition type, which of the two supervise choices should I select, short or open? And also, I'm going to choose #10 Fire Alarm as recommended by Robert.
However, I still would like to know how I would set up the definition type, which of the two supervise choices should I select, short or open? And also, I'm going to choose #10 Fire Alarm as recommended by Robert.
A loose or broken wire will be reported to the CS as a trouble (not alarm) if a fire zone type is selected. Because the zone is "in alarm" when the contacts in the switch short, a cut wire will likely produce the same result.
One way to test the retard time without flowing water is to manually move the lever connected to the vain or paddle in the pipe. The pressure holding the contacts in there normal state slowly bleeds down a you will here a "click" for each set of contacts.
One way to test the retard time without flowing water is to manually move the lever connected to the vain or paddle in the pipe. The pressure holding the contacts in there normal state slowly bleeds down a you will here a "click" for each set of contacts.
v1rtu0s1ty
Senior Member
Are you saying that either wire is cut or water valve trips, signal is the same? If so, a broken wire will let the ELK notify the central station?gizzmo said:
v1rtu0s1ty
Senior Member
hi gizzmo,
Rather than cutting the wire, is it ok to pull the wire from the M1 zone so I can simulate alarm and trouble?
Robert,
I bought the 22 gauge stranded wire rated 300v at RadioShack. I'm thinking of hacking the water flow valve this coming weekend. I'll take many pictures too!!!
Thanks!
Neil
Rather than cutting the wire, is it ok to pull the wire from the M1 zone so I can simulate alarm and trouble?
Robert,
I bought the 22 gauge stranded wire rated 300v at RadioShack. I'm thinking of hacking the water flow valve this coming weekend. I'll take many pictures too!!!
Thanks!
Neil
v1rtu0s1ty
Senior Member
First test: wire
Ok folks, I installed the wiring and EOLR on the water flow valve for the fire sprinkler. Then on the other end, I connected it to zone 6. Also, I configured the zone as type 12. I removed the wire and M1 caught it.
Next test: water flow
I went to the sump pump because I had a drain there for the fire sprinkler. However, I turned the knob to TEST rather than DRAIN and waited a minute, I didn't hear the bell. Something went wrong. I removed my wires an EOLR, tested again, waited for 2 minutes, but the it didn't ring the bell anymore. The retard time was previously set to factory default which is 20 to 45 secs. I brought it down to 10-25 secs but still no success. Do you guys have any idea what I did wrong?
In case you ask, here is the manual -> http://www.pottersignal.com/sprinkler/prod.../pdf/VSR-SF.pdf
I'm also including an attachment so you can see how I wired it. The COMM goes to NEG on the M1, and NC goes to a zone on the M1.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Ok folks, I installed the wiring and EOLR on the water flow valve for the fire sprinkler. Then on the other end, I connected it to zone 6. Also, I configured the zone as type 12. I removed the wire and M1 caught it.
Next test: water flow
I went to the sump pump because I had a drain there for the fire sprinkler. However, I turned the knob to TEST rather than DRAIN and waited a minute, I didn't hear the bell. Something went wrong. I removed my wires an EOLR, tested again, waited for 2 minutes, but the it didn't ring the bell anymore. The retard time was previously set to factory default which is 20 to 45 secs. I brought it down to 10-25 secs but still no success. Do you guys have any idea what I did wrong?
In case you ask, here is the manual -> http://www.pottersignal.com/sprinkler/prod.../pdf/VSR-SF.pdf
I'm also including an attachment so you can see how I wired it. The COMM goes to NEG on the M1, and NC goes to a zone on the M1.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Attachments
v1rtu0s1ty
Senior Member
How come, about 3 weeks ago, while I had my VOM on the terminals, I asked wifey to put the knob to TEST and after a minute, I heard the bell rang so loud and VOM got a reading as well. I also had an email from PotterSignal and confirmed that it's low voltage. But today even after waiting for more than 2 mins, and after I have remove the wires and EOLR that I've I added, it doesn't BELL anymore. I actually emailed pottersignal and hopefully, I'll get a response tomorrow.
I was reading the VSR manual and there was a note there not to leave the valve open for a long time. I had it open for like 10 mins.
Why do they say that though?
I was reading the VSR manual and there was a note there not to leave the valve open for a long time. I had it open for like 10 mins.
Why do they say that though?
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