More Insteon products?

[cfoxga]

I'm sure you've figured out by now that there is no "best" choice out there. Everything depends on your individual preferences, tolerances and needs.

I, for one, am reasonably happy with Insteon (I use mostly Icons). There is a laundry list of things that I wish were different, but there are so many positives that overcome the limitations.

Pros
-----
- Even at $25 (I bought most of mine at $20), the Icons are tough to compete with on price vs performance. I currently have 25 Icons, 2 Switchlinc V2s, and 2 Keypadlincs installed. I will soon be adding another 15 Icons.

- My wife and I love the simplicity of the Icon's single LED. I plan of swapping out the V2 faceplates with Icons to keep the look consistent. We really don't care for the dimmer LED bars on switches. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

- The Keypadlincs are nice looking, especially with custom buttons.

- The physical size of the switches made installation alot easier than my old X10 switches. I have some triple gang boxes that were still a real pain to fit the Icons in; anything bigger would have really sucked.

- Having X10 support allows for migration from an X10 based system to Insteon, though HA Software like Homeseer makes this not as big a deal (assuming you want a PC running all the time). I currently use X10 Hawkeye motion detectors to control loads without the need to HA software.

- I do use Homeseer, but want as much of the system as possible to work when Homeseer is down. Much of the switch links can be stored on the switchand the motion detectors can directly control the lights. I'm not sure of how much functionality is stored on the switch for UPB and Zwave.

- Local load changes are reported to the PLC. I believe there are some Zwave devices that don't support this (thus requiring polling).

- Virtually instant reaction to switch presses, whether it is the load's switch or a slave switch. Way better than X10. I always hated X10 for the half second delay added by slave switches. I've read that UPB is fairly sluggish in this respect; don't know about Zwave.

- Reliable messaging. When I press a button, I feel 99% confident that the correct action will take place. This is more than good enough for me; I was ok with the 95% that I had with X10. My understanding is that UPB and Zwave are even more reliable than Insteon in this respect.


Cons
------
- There are definitely QC issues: the LED brightness can vary from switch to switch, the paddles are flaky on a couple of sitches, and I've had 1 or 2 outright failures of installed switches.

- Software support at this point is not good. Homeseer cannot create switch links. Powerhome can manage the links, but is not user friendly. I haven't tested the Smarthome software package.

- Lots of holes in the product line at this point: no RF remote, no motion detector, etc. Since I use Homeseer, I have been able to work around this by keeping some X10 product in place.

If I were forced to choose again now, I'd still pick Insteon Icon on price, looks, and functionality. They are an amazing deal. After factoring in the PLC and Signallinc costs, I think I've come out way lower than Zwave or UPB, without having to make large sacrifices in functionality. The other options would probably have run 2-3 times more a simlar solution. Even after the headaches/cost of replacing problematic devices, I still think I came out ahead.

If I had more high-wattage loads (which would prohibit the use of Icons), the value/cost goes way down to far. I would likely NOT choose Insteon.

However, and this is where personal tolerances come into play, I could not spend an $50+ per switch for a large number of switches, no matter how good/reliable it was. I would either go scale back and automate only key locations, or go back to cheap X10 switches (which were "pretty good"), or do without automated lights. But again, that is my personal opinion. Some people are more than happy to pay $100 per switch for Lutron (which I'm sure are awesome); I just don't happen to be one of them...

Chris

 

[Steve]

- Virtually instant reaction to switch presses, whether it is the load's switch or a slave switch. Way better than X10. I always hated X10 for the half second delay added by slave switches. I've read that UPB is fairly sluggish in this respect; don't know about Zwave.

The delay on an SAI UPB switch is 750ms while it waits for a second click. That has been a concern for some. Also very personal. I can tell you for a fact that the manufacturers have heard this and are addressing it at least in different ways and to different levels. You should see that soon. Personally, it has not been an issue for me.

- I do use Homeseer, but want as much of the system as possible to work when Homeseer is down. Much of the switch links can be stored on the switch and the motion detectors can directly control the lights. I'm not sure of how much functionality is stored on the switch for UPB and Zwave.

Yes, UPB is completely functional without any software or controller. There was a post by Dave I believe where he shared a sample UPStart file where he has an entire large home configured solely with switches and no other mechanism. It was quite an impressive setup.

If I had more high-wattage loads (which would prohibit the use of Icons), the value/cost goes way down to far. I would likely NOT choose Insteon.

And this is very important and should not be overlooked. An Icon is only rated for 300W and derates 50W for each adjacent switch. I also would never use a switch near is max rating just because of heat issues and things as Martin said above - what if you are near the max and decide to put higher wattage bulbs? I think Icons should only be used to control individual or very small loads which eliminate them for a lot of people. When you compare apples to apples, UPB will likely still be more expensive but not as big as you think.

 

[RWlodarczyk]

Answering backwards, yes, there are several phase couplers for UPB but most likely you won't even need one. The UPB signal is strong. I have roughly 3000 sq ft too with no coupler and still get excellent signal on both phases.

That's really great. My home is pretty unusual (it's 4 stories, so I was afraid that possibly Phase 1 would be the first 2 floors and Phase 2 would be the top 2 floors) and wondered if the phase coupler would work. Not having to use a phase coupler is definitely an advantage IMHO.

Are you using strictly software like HS, or considering a panel like Elk, Omni or JDS? HS does have a UPB plug in.

I was not planning on using a panel. [I'll probably get flamed for saying this... ] I didn't see the distinct advantages of getting a panel. Having HS running on my server at home seemed like enough.

I would probably suggest buying a $100 UPB starter kit from AO and trying it out before making any real commitments. It is probably more than a $400 value and has everything you need to get started.

Hmm... I looked but didn't find any $100 starter kits... the cheapest one was ~$450.

I use SAI equipment and I tested them all. PCS is more expensive but has a better warranty. I liked the LED colors, higher wattage rating and changeable faceplates on SAI which moved me over HAI.

The SAI devices look quite cool.

Honestly now I'm completely confused. UPB wasn't really even a choice in my original thoughts. It was between Insteon and Z-Wave. Now I think it's more of a question of Insteon or UPB.

 

[Event5]

RWlodarczyk,

If you havn't yet, you should download the UPB setup program UPStart from SA
]Here

Then if you like you can download the sample file I have posted and play with it Here. Look in each room, see what switches are there and how links are used.



Dave

 

[cfoxga]

The delay on an SAI UPB switch is 750ms while it waits for a second click. That has been a concern for some. Also very personal. I can tell you for a fact that the manufacturers have heard this and are addressing it at least in different ways and to different levels. You should see that soon. Personally, it has not been an issue for me.

3/4 of a second would bother me quite a bit, though I'm sure I would eventually get used to it. But I'm pretty anal about stuff like that The mismatched LED colors and bright keypad LEDs bug me every time I look at them.

Yes, UPB is completely functional without any software or controller. There was a post by Dave I believe where he shared a sample UPStart file where he has an entire large home configured solely with switches and no other mechanism. It was quite an impressive setup.

That would certainly be a nice feature to have in Insteon. The current linking is a little to rudimentary for it to be a standalone system, but it functions well enough.

And this is very important and should not be overlooked. An Icon is only rated for 300W and derates 50W for each adjacent switch.

Agreed. Luckily, my house does not have too many large loads, and I rarely have to put 2 dimmers next to each other (usually one relay for a fan and one for a light in a double gang box). I also use the older Green LED Icons, which were actually rated for 600W. I think they repackaged the V2 switches with a single green LED in order to save money in the manufacturing process early on. But I still try to keep those loads under 200-250 watts. I've put to 600W and 1000W V2s and Keypadlincs on the bigger loads, but there are only a couple of those.

When you compare apples to apples, UPB will likely still be more expensive but not as big as you think.

I have close to 50 devices purchased so far (40 Icons, 2 V2s, 2 Keypadlincs, 4 lamp modules, 2 signallincs, and a PLC). All told, I've spent about $1500 on parts (including custom key for keypads and dead devices). That's about $30 per device. Had I waited for the big 20% off sales, I could have come in even cheaper. I can't believe UPB can come close.

I just checked a UPB seller and the cheapest switch was $60. The "cheap" slave switches that everyone keeps saying Insteon lacks were over $25. No need to have a slave switch for Insteon when the Icons are only $25. Having bought a new house and our first child born the same month made spending $3000+ on lighting impossible to sell to the wife...

As I said in my original post, the "personal need" is an important factor. I don't have many large loads, so I mostly needed Icons. If I had larger loads and needed 40 V2s at $40-45 a pop, I would have probably stayed away from Insteon, given the technology was so new. But the Icons presented a value that has not been seen in HA (to my knowledge). A good feature set at X10 prices is tough to beat...

Chris

 

[Steve]

Not having to use a phase coupler is definitely an advantage IMHO.

Remember, every house is different. You can't go strictly by square footage. They recommend phase couplers for all installs, but I have found that many do not need it. You just need to try it without and see, but at least they are available if you do.

I was not planning on using a panel. [I'll probably get flamed for saying this... blink.gif] I didn't see the distinct advantages of getting a panel. Having HS running on my server at home seemed like enough.

Do you have any plans for security?

Hmm... I looked but didn't find any $100 starter kits... the cheapest one was ~$450.

Sorry about that - looks like the price on the new kit is different since it includes other components. It is now $175, but still a fantastic deal to get you started in UPB. Here is the link.

 

[Steve]

QUOTE
When you compare apples to apples, UPB will likely still be more expensive but not as big as you think.


I have close to 50 devices purchased so far (40 Icons, 2 V2s, 2 Keypadlincs, 4 lamp modules, 2 signallincs, and a PLC). All told, I've spent about $1500 on parts (including custom key for keypads and dead devices). That's about $30 per device. Had I waited for the big 20% off sales, I could have come in even cheaper. I can't believe UPB can come close.

I do not disagree, but it is important to understand my apples to apples argument. You can not compare an Icon to a UPB switch, that is apples to oranges .

A 600W switch is a $20 difference at retail and a 1000W dimmer is less than $10 difference at retail. I don't dispute UPB is more, but not drastic when comparing similar switches.

 

[RonX]

I was on the same decision, I finally went with Insteon because I know I will hate UPB delay (the price was a factor too). I like Z-Wave, but I can't use it since wall boxes are all metal (house is built with bricks and concrete).

 

[Herdfan]

I'll chime in here since I probably have one of the bigger Insteon installations this side of Mike.

From an "operational" standpoint Insteon is hard to beat. Response is almost instant and although linking is a pain, once done everything works well.

Then there is the QC issue. It seems like the pink elephant in the room to SH. Everyone knows its there, but no one talks about it. Smartlabs Mike will come into these forums and provide information and answer questions, but seems to go out of his way to avoid threads or posts about Insteon quality.

There was a post on one board (can't remember which one, sorry) from a guy who knew a SL employee in the Insteon development area and the post led the reader to believe that SL/SH is aware of the problems but have no ideas how to fix it.

Right now it seems SH is fine with selling a few switches to someone who wants to be able to make a couple of virtual 3-ways and in most cases these type of installs will be fine. But for the larger pro/retrofit market, Insteon has too many QC issues for a professional to put into a client's home.

I have around 80 devices with somewhere near 1,000 links. I have replaced some switches 3 times due to failures/bugs. That is really unacceptable. SH has always RMA'd them with no problem, but i have better things to do on a weekend that replace switches.

I have stopped my Insteon installation about 30 switches short of completing my house. I am going to try the new Leviton Z-waves in a couple of places when they become available. I expect the Leviton stuff to be very high quality and hope they have nice looking keypads. I completely agree with the previous poster who commented on the UPB keypads. My Insteon keypads with etched buttons look very nice and a little superglue fixed the loose button problem.

RWlodarczyk,

Good luck with your decision. Based on what you want to do, if I were in your shoes and needed to do something now, I would go with a UPB device. If you can wait 6 months, they maybe see what Z-wave has to offer then.

 

[Digger]

I remember a post early this year that contained information about new Insteon products to come out this year. A few of them came out but the rest have not come out (yet).

I would guess that SH has slowed down things until they can address some of the concerns with the products. That is just a guess.

If they get the bugs out the products would be great and then they would have to aggresively expand the product line.

 

[wuench]

I would guess that SH has slowed down things until they can address some of the concerns with the products. That is just a guess.

Those are my thoughts also. Insteon is not really ready for large installs, but it is improving. As are UPB and ZWave. SH has shown they are willing to make changes and fix issues. I think, unless you really have money to burn, it will prove worth the wait.

If you are antsy to play with something, order a starter kit or a few switches and play around. Find something else to focus on for now.

That's why I went out a bought my M1G. Something else to keep me occupied, and one decision I am positive I won't regret!

 

[RWlodarczyk]

I was not planning on using a panel. [I'll probably get flamed for saying this... blink.gif] I didn't see the distinct advantages of getting a panel. Having HS running on my server at home seemed like enough.

Do you have any plans for security?

Yes. At some point I want to put in a Elk securit system. My understanding is that this works with Insteon and UPB pretty well... Is that correct?

 

[elcano]

My two cents:

- Check the prices of UPB dimmer and switch prices at Fry's (Outpost.com). They had prices as low as $35. I would order a few samples to evaluate (together with the UPB kit from AO) before ordering the rest. This places UPB prices on par with Insteon and below Z-Wave (if the switches proof to be good).

- You made a comment on security of the protocols. I believe that the signal in Z-wave and UPB are encrypted, but not in Insteon (please check this fact yourself). My understanding is that the Insteon computer inteface mask the data packets so that the computer does not get the key information required to control the neighboor's house. However, if you hack your interface then you could see all what is happening thru the neighbors power lines and then control their houses. This is not possible with UPB and Z-Wave. Again, do your research here yourself as I dont have the details now. I just remember the the issue was raised once.

 

[Steve]

Yes. At some point I want to put in a Elk securit system. My understanding is that this works with Insteon and UPB pretty well... Is that correct?

Yes, but dare I say the Elk support for UPB is a little stronger. Insteon support requires a special firmware for the serial expander while UPB support is built into the standard. But yes, either will work.

- Check the prices of UPB dimmer and switch prices at Fry's (Outpost.com). They had prices as low as $35. I would order a few samples to evaluate (together with the UPB kit from AO) before ordering the rest. This places UPB prices on par with Insteon and below Z-Wave (if the switches proof to be good).

This is true and the Fry's deal is good. Just be cautious and note the following. The Fry's switches are SAI 1130's rebranded as HAL. This switches are the old model and I believe when supplies run out, thats it. Also they have the squared corners which may be a bit tougher in j-boxes. And the LED color does not match the US240 and the faceplates are not interchangeable. So if you can live with those limitations, then yes they are an excellent deal (so maybe for garages or other locations where you don't need an exact match or other functionality)

Z-wave and UPB are encrypted, but not in Insteon (please check this fact yourself). My understanding is that the Insteon computer inteface mask the data packets so that the computer does not get the key information required to control the neighboor's house. However, if you hack your interface then you could see all what is happening thru the neighbors power lines and then control their houses. This is not possible with UPB and Z-Wave.

You may want to check those facts on UPB. I know there is a network password, but I don't think there is anything actiually encyrpted. I'm not entirely sure tho and the only mention of it in the spec docs is "There will also be applicable encryption incorporated into the DLL layer and if necessary at the higher network layers.". Bottom line is I don't think any of them are truly secure or hacker proof protocols.

 

[majortom]

I'll chime in here since I probably have one of the bigger Insteon installations this side of Mike.

I have moved three houses completely over to Insteon (my house in Winter Garden, my parents house in Skokie, and my house in LA). I have hundreds of devices and have had only two die (one after a big electrical storm in Florida). Based on my experience, several friends have started converting their homes as well. I started with UPB and found that I did not like the delay of their switches and had a few other issues (it has been long enough that I do not remember them all). Comparing apples to apples, SmartHome KeypadLinc V2 switches list for $60 and I have seen them as low as $50, while I have not been able to find SAI keypads for less than $99. That is a fairly sizable price gap.

As for protocol security, Insteon (as a protocol) provides the ability to send encrypted packets for devices like alarm sensors and door locks.

/carmi