More INSTEON quality control issues!

[wuench]

I have often thought that power line control would be much more reliable if xmitters and receivers had two way communication so that the receiver would acknowledge receipt of a command and if that did not happen that the transmitter would resend the command. Perhaps some of these, new to me, protocols have that feature. I have not had time to read about all of them yet.

Yes, Insteon does have that feature. Insteon devices send an initial group command to the powerline. Members of that group will perform the requested action (turn on, off, whatever). After sending the group command, the sending device then sends a direct "cleanup" command to each member of that group, to be sure they heard the initial group command. If the responder does not acknowledge, the sending device keeps retrying the command until finally giving up (after 5 tries).

Unless another device sends an Insteon message, then group cleanup is abandoned. This is the primary reason group communication is less reliable than single switch commands, and why you may be able to turn a light on individually, but when you issue a group/scene command it will fail.

 

[nathansvt]

Well, I've read all 7 pages of this thread, and if I was starting a new Insteon deployment I'd be terrified. (and probably would pick a different technology)

However, I'm probably among the hundreds, or thousands, of people who bought into Insteon and don't visit the forums regularly because in my installation they simply work. Granted, I don't live in a Mansion and I don't have anywhere near 200 units (15-17 is probably closer). But so far, I've never had to return a single unit. They are replacing X10 units that worked with about the reliability of a coin flip, but in the same locations, I've only had one insteon unit ever fail to respond to a command locally or remotely. I have at least three UPS devices in the house, and surge strips+computers in every room.

While I don't doubt that Insteon fails to satisfy for some, I felt it necessary to speak up for the many silent SH customers who don't communicate on the forums precisely because they don't find any issues that require assistance. Now I just hope i haven't jinxed myself.

Regards,
Nathan

 

[Monk]

Well, I've read all 7 pages of this thread, and if I was starting a new Insteon deployment I'd be terrified. (and probably would pick a different technology)

Indeed - I just spent about 600.00 on non-Insteon wireless -

 

[JimInSoCal]

Thank you for the tip on the orange box to go to the first unread message in a thread and thank you for the info on the INSTEON protocol including an acknolegement from the receiver. INSTEON sure has a lot going on in order to turn a light on. I am not complaining, but I am just amazed at the amount of computing power packet into a light switch. Probably about equal to the computers that went to the moon the first time.

I just received a INSTEON switch that I am going to use in X-10 mode and it appears that ramp rate and the setting for the amount of on power for one tap of the switch must now be done only at the switch and no longer can be done by sending X-10 commands over the power line as was possible with the Non-INSTEON versions of the SwitchLink.

Is the above statement correct or did I miss something?

 

[SteveL]

Thank you for the tip on the orange box to go to the first unread message in a thread and thank you for the info on the INSTEON protocol including an acknolegement from the receiver. INSTEON sure has a lot going on in order to turn a light on. I am not complaining, but I am just amazed at the amount of computing power packet into a light switch. Probably about equal to the computers that went to the moon the first time.

I just received a INSTEON switch that I am going to use in X-10 mode and it appears that ramp rate and the setting for the amount of on power for one tap of the switch must now be done only at the switch and no longer can be done by sending X-10 commands over the power line as was possible with the Non-INSTEON versions of the SwitchLink.

Is the above statement correct or did I miss something?

JimInSoCal,

You can not sent the switch an X-10 code to change the local ramp rate an preset dim level, but you can send a group X-10 command to the switch followed by the desired dim level. Then when you send that same X-10 command to the switch it will respond to that level even though is actual address of the switch may be something different. This is made really easy with the Maxi Controller from Smarthome.

SteveL

 

[cliffs]

Here is a couple of comments on the Insteon issue.

Some years ago I owned a small software firm that did assembly language development
for Industrial controls. Some I have some experience with small devices.

I did purchase about 12 of the switchlinks and had the same experience of the bad switches
that plagued these switches. I disassembled over 20 of these switches a determined that
probably all of the switches used in the switchlinks were defective. It appears as though for some reason
that the silver plating was not done on the interior parts of the switches. Sure some would work for while
then fail (that is why the interior parts are silver plated). This switchlinks should have been recalled,
but HA tried to cover up the problem. This probably happened because the switches were never inspected
before they were shipped from China and HA had no warranty from the manufacturer.

The physical design of these switches is very appealing, they match other Decor switches nicely and the
LED is a great feature that enables you to see the switch in the dark(after replacing the switches I am still using
the switchlinks in my home). I must comment I use them in the X10 mode which works fine for me.
The basic problem with X10 is that the X10 transmitters don't have enough output to cover most
houses.

As I remember X10 was only intended to work within a room or 2 and on the same circuit.
The PalmPads and their companion receiver were only design to work 30 to 50 ft., which they do.
Over time the X10 has been pushed beyond what is was designed to do. The original design was for a
inexpensive way to control a couple of lights.

I have a device which amplifies the X10 signal about 10 times and this cures the problem of covering the whole house.
Other manufacturers also make repeaters that do the same thing. AC wiring everywhere has the same problem
of induced noise and varying impedance levels as the various appliances are turn on and off. A well designed device
will be almost noise immune if it contains the proper filtering. The X10 devices have some filtering and it is just
enough to make them work short distances. Robust filtering and software error correction go a long way
in making a protocol dependable. Processors must get the proper data to work correctly. It doesn't take expensive
components to accomplish this, just good engineering.

Insteon is basically a X10 device with a slightly modified transmission protocol. There has been some code added
to the processor to enable linking and etc. It seems as though this linking protocol was not very well thought out
and has all sorts of software bugs. They seem to work if you don't try to link only one switch to the other. I have all
the original documentation and it seems as though the claims are not implemented. Products and systems should
not be marketed without thorough testing of all the features. In my experience trying to link more than one
switchlink just is not dependable. It works sometimes and most time not. Since the hardware works in the X10 mode
the hardware cannot be faulted. The problem lies in the software system. It almost appears to me from my
experience that the designer was not capable of the developing a dependable system and just shipped a partially
finished product. Claiming home networking with Insteon is just a fairy tale.

It seems strange as though all the 3 letter systems have about the same problems. They make wild promises
and do not fulfill them. Many installers look a glee to the fact they can make $50.00 plus profit on every switch
and thousands of dollars profit on the install and then leave the customer with the mess. Now that the building
business has slowed you will see most of these companies out of business.

The original switchlink was marketed at $29.95, which is about the maximum price people will pay for a
replacement light switch. It was an improvement over the X10 models that are marketed. Others tried
marketing about the same product for $100 and failed. All of the 3 letter systems all claim they are superior
and a very overstated in what they will actually do. The basic problem is that this market is very very small.
Maybe at most a few thousand units a year. For units to be low priced you need at least 100,000 unit runs
to really get the price down. X10 was the only one with any volume to speak of and they literally gave away
their products in the beginning. If the switchlink was marketed today at $29.95 and only use the X10
part it would be competitive with the X10 switches.

The only place I have seen X10 products widely used is in the swimming pool business to remotely
control pool pumps and spas. I have talked to a few of these folks and say they have few problems
with their installations.

If the market was bigger for these devices you would see dependable manufacturers develop products
that actually worked. They are not going(especially today) to spend many hundreds of thousands of dollars
on development and have little or no return.

Cliffs

 

[Lagerhead]

If SH is truly interested in fixing this situation, then we should get some interesting responses. . .

The new SH catalog in the mail reminded me:

Has SH been here (CT) yet? Does SteveL's help count? Have we not been good enough, long enough?

Not provoking; just wondering.

 

[electron]

No, SmartHome did not follow up, even after some members edited their posts as requested. While I didn't agree with members having to edit their posts, doing so put the ball back in their court, so I agreed to post that request way back. Everyone complied, so they can't say that we didn't try. Frankly, I am surprised that during these difficult economic times, a company decides to keep ignoring such a great opportunity to improve the relationship with existing and future customers.

SteveL has explained to me that he registered here with the purpose of helping people personally, and does not officially represent SmartHome. While it is extremely kind of SteveL to take time out of his personal schedule, it is not what the CocoonTech.com membership was looking for. Some of you may not be surprised, but I am sure many of you are disappointed.

While we could keep arguing about this situation, at this point, I don't see how it is going to improve/fix anything, so I would like to ask everyone to just focus on helping out existing INSTEON users instead of rehashing old debates. If you do want to remind new users of this thread, then post a link to this thread.

 

[jhdale]

Well, which questions are still unanswered? At this point:

* Basically confirmed that i1 devices did not echo extended commands, but also don't interfere with those commands. Mixed installations can work, you may need to mix in some i2 devices (such as an Access Point) along the path between widely spaced devices if you need extended messages to reach them.

* Manufacturing quality with regard to the SwitchLincs was addressed with the extended warranty. Steve indicated that SmartHome would honor the warranty even if they weren't purchased from SmartHome. "If you have a switch with this problem it is covered." Unless someone says SmartHome is still refusing to replace their Insteon SwitchLincs, it sounds like that is resolved.

* No statement about when any given device stopped shipping in an i1 version. We could figure this out, though. For example I can tell you I received an i1 ControlLinc last fall, but ApplianceLincs and LampLincs have been i2 for longer. I'd be curious to hear results from other people checking their components.

* Information available for developers. No idea whether Steve's help translated into more information in the developers' forum, I'd be curious to hear whether it did. He did say SmartHome had to build a database of all devices and versions for HL2, I'm curious whether that database of devices/versions is now available in the developers' forum. I'd also be interested in putting together a similar database that is not hidden behind an NDA, based on users reporting their findings about their devices - let me know if you're interested in helping.

* There were originally some questions about new devices not working with the new ISY, etc, possibly due to bugs, but I don't see that any of them were actually brought up in the thread where Steve was answering questions. Are they still issues?

So what else do we still want to know?

 

[Digger]

I have received a response, and they are interested in interacting with the community, but they are upset with the tone/content of some of the posts in this thread. If you want their attention, and their interaction, I'd recommend to keep things calm/civil. It looks like they are really interested in working with the community, so I'd like to ask you guys to give them a chance.

I personally don't have a stake in the INSTEON world, but there are many others who have spent thousands of dollars in equipment, so think of them when posting. If you guys think this is fair, then post here, as SmartHome is watching this thread, and we can get this ball rolling.

Since there was not a single official post from SH (Steve L states he is not representing SH just trying to personally help people) then SH got want they wanted and had the negative posts removed even in a forum that they do not control the moderator. They won! You have to give them credit for finding a way to do it.

 

[TCassio]

Digger,
Well said!!!

 

[123]

... SH got want they wanted and had the negative posts removed even in a forum that they do not control the moderator. ..

I think many Cocooners, including my cynical ol' self, suspected that this was their true intent.

Dan did the right thing and honored their request. Cocoontech is neutral ground and they had a golden opportunity to set the record straight with a large community of HA enthusiasts. They squandered it with their deafening silence. Their inaction has served to confirm my opinion of their support policy (CYA).

FWIW
After several of my X10 Keypadlincs failed I decided it was time to move to a modern and robust PLC technology. I recently ordered a PIM and several SAI UPB switches.

 

[electron]

Keep in mind that I didn't 'force' anyone to edit their posts, nor did I edit anyone's posts myself. By posting that request, and honoring it, we put the ball in their court, which was my only intention.

 

[Digger]

Keep in mind that I didn't 'force' anyone to edit their posts, nor did I edit anyone's posts myself. By posting that request, and honoring it, we put the ball in their court, which was my only intention.

Agreed and everyone supported you as best they could. SH has shown their true colors. If they really intended to help people and provide the great customer service they claim to have they would have made a presence here. Had they done that they would have been able to say that all of the negativity was untrue. What they have done is prove a lot (not saying this proves everything) of what people are saying.

 

[SteveL]

Keep in mind that I didn't 'force' anyone to edit their posts, nor did I edit anyone's posts myself. By posting that request, and honoring it, we put the ball in their court, which was my only intention.

Agreed and everyone supported you as best they could. SH has shown their true colors. If they really intended to help people and provide the great customer service they claim to have they would have made a presence here. Had they done that they would have been able to say that all of the negativity was untrue. What they have done is prove a lot (not saying this proves everything) of what people are saying.

As a note...Smarthome does not have a presence on their own board, so it does not have anything to do with Cocoontech personally. The offer still stands for anyone who has a problem with their INSTEON installation that I might be able to help to contact me directly, you are welcome to share your experience with others. With the time I have I can be alot more effective with a phone call than going back and forth in a post for a couple of days. Some days I will have the time but other days it is alot harder. I would encourage anyone that I have spoken with to share any part of it that may be benificial to others on the board.

SteveL