Need help figuring out 3way circuit

[WayneW]

1st switch:

• black -> white : ON=118V OFF=0V
• black -> red : ON=0V OFF=0V
• black -> ground : ON=0V OFF=118V
• white -> black : ON=118V OFF=0V
• white -> red : ON=118V OFF=0V
• white -> ground : ON=118V OFF=118V
• red -> white : ON=118V OFF=0V
• red -> ground : ON=0V OFF=0V
• red -> black : ON=0V OFF=0V

2nd switch:

• black -> white : ON=0V OFF=118V
• black -> red : ON=0V OFF=118V
• black -> ground : ON=118V OFF=118V
• white -> black : ON=0V OFF=0V
• white -> red : ON=0V OFF=118V
• white -> ground : ON=118V OFF=118V
• red -> white : ON=0V OFF=118V
• red -> ground : ON=0V OFF=0V
• red -> black : ON=0V OFF=118V

my assumption was that the black on switch #1 (in the drywall) was going to the load, but the entry I bolded is backwards, therefore my assumption must be wrong. And in my assumptions, changing switch #1's position wouldn't change any voltages at switch#2

switch#2 black is always hot, so I am still sure that is the feed

I suggest opening the wirenut with the two black wires (circuit break off if you are safe) and try to verify if that is the load by seeing of the light no longer works and measuring the voltage of the loose wires.

And you should only need to get voltage with respect to ground, the voltage between the various colors doesn't really add any details since this is all 100V on/off stuff.

 

[Event5]

Ok, I took some measurements before I try installing the switches again. I took these measurements at both switches in both states, but I only used the 1st switch to control the state of the light (even when measuring the 2nd switch). These are the results I got, I am hoping it will clear things up (eventho it's a lot of data), maybe someone will notice what I was doing wrong. ON and OFF refer to the state of the lights, not the switch.

1st switch:

• black -> white : ON=118V OFF=0V
• black -> red : ON=0V OFF=0V
• black -> ground : ON=0V OFF=118V
• white -> black : ON=118V OFF=0V
• white -> red : ON=118V OFF=0V
• white -> ground : ON=118V OFF=118V
• red -> white : ON=118V OFF=0V
• red -> ground : ON=0V OFF=0V
• red -> black : ON=0V OFF=0V

2nd switch:

• black -> white : ON=0V OFF=118V
• black -> red : ON=0V OFF=118V
• black -> ground : ON=118V OFF=118V
• white -> black : ON=0V OFF=0V
• white -> red : ON=0V OFF=118V
• white -> ground : ON=118V OFF=118V
• red -> white : ON=0V OFF=118V
• red -> ground : ON=0V OFF=0V
• red -> black : ON=0V OFF=118V

Dan,

More information than you need. If you look at the sample "real world" documentation that eufreka sent you, you will notice that on each 3 way switch there should be one black screw on each switch. The wire attached to that will either be a hot or a load. If you have a tester that beeps or lights up near voltage you can test which is a hot and which is the load. Once you find the hot and the load, follow the wiring on the diagrams that I sent that were created by Brad at Simply Automated.

Dave

 

[Event5]

Dan, On second look the black wire on the switch in jpg #P6123330.JPG is definately a Hot wire as it comes off the neighboring switch. Remember it would either be a Hot or a Load. That means the switch at the other end must have the load on it.

Dave

 

[electron]

Ok, in the 1st switch table, I switched the ON values with the OFF values, will fix it tomorrow.

 

[electron]

Ok, I updated the original post with the correct values this time, sorry about that.

 

[eufreka]

Ok, I updated the original post with the correct values this time, sorry about that.

Maybe I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish....first things first--find the LINE wire. It is either at one of the switch locations OR the Light location.

Maybe you should tell us just what wires you see. You may need to look in the light itself.

If you "un-wire" both switches (and then re-energize the circuit--which you should never do), then you should only register Line current at one location. That is the master. And it has both Line and Load wires. Assuming the light is in the third location (i.e., LINE>master switch>secondary switch>then light), your goal is to bypass the second switch (like it is not even there), routing the load wire straight through to the light.

Being VERY sure to re-label the wires in the second switch location with their true purpose (i.e., wrap black electrical tape around the "new" load wire; which was previously a "traveller") cap off any now unused wire(s) at both ends (of switch 1 and 2).

Once you have the light working with JUST the master switch, then you can determine how to wire a NON-Load switch at the second switch position. Typically, you have two choices, if there is LINE available at that box already (i.e., a multi-gang box), just wire it in--line and neutral--and cap the load wire. If it is in a now isolated single gang box; you will need to use one of the capped off "spares" (formerly "travellers") to wire a LINE feed from box one. In any event, you can only do this if there is a neutral available....

I realize that this doesn't really make sense, I guess I just cannot explain it well.

 

[Event5]

....Yes, That is a good explination!

It is very difficult to explain in this forum all of the possibilities!

Dave

 

[eufreka]

Okay, one last quickie comment. I looked at your pix and it is possible that what is helping to confuse you is that your "line" for the 3-way appears to be coming from the separate standalone switch (instead of from directly from a romex).

Although NOT always, there is "usually" only one LINE in a box...so your first step is to reason out where EACH wire bundle coming into the box is coming from/going to.

In one of your pictures, it appears that the line comes into the standalone switch and then they use a short piece of black wire in the back of the standalone to jump it over to the 3-way (I don't know the terminology). In some of my boxes it was done in a slight variation in which the line wire had a quarter-inch band stripped and wrapped around one switch before terminating in a second switch.

It looked kinda like this ======---===========---
.................................................^stripped spots......^

In any event, wherever I could (room in box), I reconfigured this wiring arrangement into a "pigtail" bundle so that each switch took its line from the bundle directly, not through another switch.

 

[Sandpiper]

Ok, I took some measurements before I try installing the switches again. I took these measurements at both switches in both states, but I only used the 1st switch to control the state of the light (even when measuring the 2nd switch). These are the results I got, I am hoping it will clear things up (eventho it's a lot of data), maybe someone will notice what I was doing wrong. ON and OFF refer to the state of the lights, not the switch.

1st switch:

• black -> white : ON=0V OFF=118V
• black -> red : ON=0V OFF=0V
• black -> ground : ON=118V OFF=0V
• white -> black : ON=0V OFF=118V
• white -> red : ON=0V OFF=118V
• white -> ground : ON=118V OFF=118V
• red -> white : ON=0V OFF=118V
• red -> ground : ON=0V OFF=0V
• red -> black : ON=0V OFF=0V

2nd switch:

• black -> white : ON=0V OFF=118V
• black -> red : ON=0V OFF=118V
• black -> ground : ON=118V OFF=118V
• white -> black : ON=0V OFF=0V
• white -> red : ON=0V OFF=118V
• white -> ground : ON=118V OFF=118V
• red -> white : ON=0V OFF=118V
• red -> ground : ON=0V OFF=0V
• red -> black : ON=0V OFF=118V

Using only the measurements to ground (measurements to unconnected wires may give misleading results), I'd have to say it appears that they used the red and white wires as travellers instead of the usual red and black. Switch 1 is connected to the load and switch 2 is connected to the power source. If I am correct, you should also find a black-to-white wire splice in both boxes.

 

[Event5]

On further inspection, Yes, the black wire on switch 1 should go to the load but not in that box. If you look closely to p612330.jpg you will notice the black(with the red and white from switch 1) wire is wirenutted to another black wire. That should be the load.
With that info and the previous discovery that the Hot (line) is(probably) the black jumper from the third switch, you should be able to wire a "master" in the same box, p612330.jpg.
You should consider changing the wire usage to a more standard configuration. Move the White wire between switch 1 and 2 to the white bundle as a neutral. and use the black and red as spairs.

Dave

 

[electron]

So I would install the US11-30 master in that 2nd switch location area. Hook up the load wire from the US11-30 to that wirenut with the 2 black wires. Then connect the Line from the US11-30 to that neighbor switch (like it is now), connect white to white, and connect white/brown to the red wire.

 

[Event5]

The quick answer is yes.... however... if everything is the way it seems from the pictures you should remove and wirenuted wires to the #1 switch and remove the black wire.. it is so hard to be clear relaying instructions like this...

Just to be safe, follow this procedure:

Remove power from boxes and test that there is no power before proceding.

1. Remove wires from switch 1 and protect with wire nuts.

2. Separate two black wires in box with second switch. Box 2

3. In box 2, for now wirenut the Red White and Black wires that come from box 1( this requires separating the two black wires that are wired together and removing the red and white from switch #2)

4. Connect the ground and neutral wires of the US 1130 in box 2 to the copper and white wires nutted together.

5. Connect the load (brown) wire on the US 1130 to the remaining black wire from the wirenuted pair.

6. Connect the line (black) wire on the US 1130 to the wire coming from the 3rd switch.

When all wirenuts are tight, power up and test the switch. It should work manualy.

Keep track of what you had if you need to go back.(its good you have pictures)

Dan, are you planning to add a slave(remote) switch or a virtual remote switch in switch location 1?

Dave

 

[electron]

Planning on adding the USR slave switch.

 

[Event5]

Dan, you can wire the USR as you expected (as discribed in the Sample diagram from SA). White/Brown to red at both ends. All whites together.

3 choices with the USR brown wire:

Connected to the Line(hot)= LED on all the time
Connected to the switched(load)= LED on when the load is on
Connected to nothing = LED off all the time (switch will still work without the brown wire connected)

Use the black wire to carry the Line(hot) or the switched (load) to the USR brown

Dave