New construction - 7000 Sq. Ft. House

[wkearney99]

For my 2 cents, if you get the right lighting control expert to do the lighting controls, keypads is the only way to go. Traditional multiple gang switches look terrible, and guests always have to hit 2-3 switches to get lights on and off, three way switches cause confusion, etc. With a lighting control system pressing the Room On button (we always engrave every button) is a no brainer, as well as the Room Off. Most users of our systems really like the Dinner button, or Clean Up button, or Low button (like a dim scene to watch TV or a movie), or Path To Kitchen button, and rarely ever use the buttons that control single lights.
 
Make sure to get and call a few references from the automator, and ask how easy it is to use the system, are they happy with it, and was the automator reliable.

 
I agree that banks of dimmers strung out along a wall can indeed look terrible.  But that has more to do with just bad circuit layout than automation.  That and over-lighting a space.  Whenever I've seen a multi-gang wall plate, or worse several side-by-side, it's usually because there's too much lighting and not enough planning.
 
As for scenes, some folks do indeed like them.  Me, not so much.  There's a limited number of buttons on a keypad, but many rooms get used for more than one purpose; on different days of the week, at different times of the day.  So while "Dinner" and "Clean Up" are great ideas, if you want to use that space for something else then you're stuck with using some other kind of controls.  I'm not saying it's bad idea, one way or the other, just that it's worth considering your lifestyle and how you genuinely expect to be using the spaces ahead of time.  This can help avoid being stuck with a control scheme that doesn't fit your needs.  
 
Personally, I like to have one plain looking paddle dimmer for the 'main lighting' used for the room and then a keypad for programmable options.  This way anyone can get light into the space without having to deal with the tiny little keypad buttons.  
 
All of my keypads always include using the bottom-most button for "All Off" for the area.  This is a winner with everyone that's used it.  Lutron has the nice feature of being able to add delays to actions, so when you hit "All Off" it can be set up to immediately turn off most lights but delay turning off your exit path; gradually dimming it as you leave.  
 
I think where things are starting to get more exciting is with voice control.  Now THAT'S a means for which I could really see using a lot of scenes.  Amazon's Echo is making a lot of progress here, but it's still in it's early days.  Lutron's integration options for it are as yet undelivered.  That and voice doesn't work well if you want to control things during quiet times. 
 
There's lots of great innovation happening with home automation.  But it all still depends on there being a good foundation of well planned lighting.  Make sure that's where you start.  

 

[picta]

If you want automation for the 7000 sf house it's best to go with commercial product, there is no way around it. If you just want a "few things" you can toy with, then consumer grade stuff (zwave, insteon etc.) will be ok.
 
I like Lutron products, they are very solid and great looking, but they are also the most expensive. When we automated our 5000 sq ft house, we went with Centralite Elegance that is about half the price of Lutron, has a free software and you can customize the system any time yourself without the dealer interference. The best part of the system is that you can use its keypads to control virtually anything, not just lights, by linking it to a HAI controller (shades, garage doors, fireplaces, speakers, video etc.). And the keypads are inexpensive unlike the Radio RA. They have about 7 different styles and many colors and you can have 1 to 8 buttons in a single gang box. We do not have more than 2 gangs of keypads anywhere, and the 2 gangs are usually for places which control nearby shades or fans that each would require a separate 3 button keypad otherwise. All buttons are labeled and you can change them easily as your lifestyle evolves or you add more automation. And the system has been running for 7+ years so far, talk about quality.
 
If you have plans of your house, you may consider posting on this board to solicit advice on your automation layout. Your best bet is to get as much advice as you can and then compile all opinions and make your own decision for what will be best for YOUR situation.

 

[wkearney99]

If you want automation for the 7000 sf house it's best to go with commercial product, there is no way around it. If you just want a "few things" you can toy with, then consumer grade stuff (zwave, insteon etc.) will be ok.
 
I like Lutron products, they are very solid and great looking, but they are also the most expensive. When we automated our 5000 sq ft house, we went with Centralite Elegance that is about half the price of Lutron, has a free software and you can customize the system any time yourself without the dealer interference. The best part of the system is that you can use its keypads to control virtually anything, not just lights, by linking it to a HAI controller (shades, garage doors, fireplaces, speakers, video etc.). And the keypads are inexpensive unlike the Radio RA. They have about 7 different styles and many colors and you can have 1 to 8 buttons in a single gang box. We do not have more than 2 gangs of keypads anywhere, and the 2 gangs are usually for places which control nearby shades or fans that each would require a separate 3 button keypad otherwise. All buttons are labeled and you can change them easily as your lifestyle evolves or you add more automation. And the system has been running for 7+ years so far, talk about quality.
 
If you have plans of your house, you may consider posting on this board to solicit advice on your automation layout. Your best bet is to get as much advice as you can and then compile all opinions and make your own decision for what will be best for YOUR situation.

 
Good, fast, cheap... pick two.  The Lutron stuff is reliable and wife-accepted.  The touch quality of the equipment is second to none.  That and doesn't the Centralite stuff require all the loads be wired back to dimmers in the panels?  Not in the wall boxes themselves?  That certainly shifts where the costs lie.
 
There's lots of different solutions, so choose for yourself. 

 

[picta]

Most commercial hard-wired lighting is home-run. An exception would be a zigbee based system, but the problem with those is they do not offer a wide variety of devices. Elegance, QS, Vantage, HAI omnibus all require running high and low voltage wire into a central panel(s). The wiring cost is actually less for high voltage in the straight line, no drilling into joists, no wiring to the wall switches method. The problem is usually to find a competent electrician who will not be intimidated by this method. We used a commercial electrician, who was delighted to do it, and wired everything ahead of the contractor's schedule. And we did not pay more, the extra cost came from components. We did all low voltage wire ourselves and saved a bundle. Sometimes you can "pick two" and hack the third by using some DIY, but it's definitely tricky and not for everyone.

 

[wkearney99]

By putting the loads back in the panel you also tie the house to permanently using that kind of solution.  You leave yourself with no option for using any other sort of 'normal' switches in the wall boxes.  This leads to the situation where the automation system may result in a negative impact on the home's resale value.  You can't just step back to regular non-automated gear.   You would indeed want to find an installer that understands the system.  Trouble is that kind of installer may not have any familiarity with automating a residence of this kind.  It's definitely something you'd want them to know unless you're prepared to do all the planning.
 
I'm not saying it doesn't work or that it's a bad idea.  But it's definitely something you absolutely have to plan for ahead of time.
 
I'd also suggest being aware of whether or not the dimmers being considered have been tested and confirmed to work with the kinds of light fixtures desired.  As in, make sure they'll handle dimming (or even switching) LED and CFL lights.

 

[Del91574]

Centralized load is actually the best way to go no matter what the system. The largest variable is what the LV trigger to the centralized load requires. The smart guys pull a heavy enough and rated cable to the switch leg and then you're not tied either way.
 
Touchplate and many others facilitate "dumb" central load lighting and switching.....problem is usually the installed cost and getting an electrician that understands how they work and can control them. Hardest part of a touchplate centralized system is dimming.
 
Have seen many touchplate installs screwed up by electricians that don't really understand LV controls.

 

[wkearney99]

Yes, if you're prepared to essentially install double the amount of wire, a centralized scheme does give you a high degree of resilience against future developments. Likewise on getting a very savvy installer.
 
One of the emerging factors with lighting is smart bulbs, ones requiring constant power.  There's no switch to them in the traditional sense.  It's all a matter of RF signaling used to control them.  This isn't with it's woes, and still doesn't work with centralized dimmers.  But there at least you'd be capable of changing from controlled to direct power back at the breaker panel.  I'm no expert on the electrical code issues though.  Going from a centralized dimmer, likely on it's own breaker, wouldn't have the same number of individual breakers you'd find in a traditional setup.  I don't think that sways me enough to buy into it, but it's one of many angles to consider.

 

[picta]

We have 3 Hue light bulbs installed, they work just fine with Elegance and can be controlled by a button in the keypad for on/off plus another button to rotate through preset RGB. The load is always on when the house is occupied and off otherwise, and the button is just a trigger for HAI to launch whatever action that you want. This was cool for a while, but now the novelty is worn off and we'll be changing this to regular load with LED bulbs. Same button will continue to operate the lights though.
 
There are 4-12 loads per breaker, same calculations apply as to not overload the breaker. The central wiring allows for great flexibility. Any switch will control any load. You may disconnect any wire from the panel and connect it to a battery for example, to power your LEDs directly. And if the system ever dies, and you cannot get another, you can replace it with relays or wireless switches. A lot of high end houses use centralized lighting control and nobody frets about it, on the contrary, it is a negative if you don't have it (but of course, it would have to be custom installed and managed by the dealer).

 

[Del91574]

Yes, if you're prepared to essentially install double the amount of wire, a centralized scheme does give you a high degree of resilience against future developments. Likewise on getting a very savvy installer.
 
One of the emerging factors with lighting is smart bulbs, ones requiring constant power.  There's no switch to them in the traditional sense.  It's all a matter of RF signaling used to control them.  This isn't with it's woes, and still doesn't work with centralized dimmers.  But there at least you'd be capable of changing from controlled to direct power back at the breaker panel.  I'm no expert on the electrical code issues though.  Going from a centralized dimmer, likely on it's own breaker, wouldn't have the same number of individual breakers you'd find in a traditional setup.  I don't think that sways me enough to buy into it, but it's one of many angles to consider.

Centralized doesn't really change the amount of wiring in most circumstances. In anything but a spec/limited house, your better electricians are going to home run at least a single hot feed per room. If you run a 14 or 12/3 to the first box and then feed from there, it's really not increasing the labor or material that much. All in how you plan and run the feeds and if you're familiar with centralized vs. "traditional" bounce off everything. Remember, centralized doesn't increase the number of breakers or circuits being installed....it modifies the bus topology and connection to the feeds.

The larger variable in those installs will be dimmers.
 
I put "smart bulbs" into the parlor trick realm for those that are not going to delve into true automation and integration. Specifically, the DIY market that wants a couple things to play with; doubtful you'll see much in the way of integration unless there's a large gateway to connect X to Y. They'll still be a novelty for most, not to mention with everyone getting worried about parasitic loads (which is laughable for many instances) the requirement for a constant hot feed to light cans/fixtures will not become commonplace.

 

[pete_c]

It's been a few years now that I saw an automation fuse panel at EHExpo one year.  I was impressed.  Googling today see many offerings.  Here are a couple.
 
Hubbell Building Automation
 

 
 
Schneider Electric homeLYnk is the key to provide a complete solution, delivering unlimited flexibility, simplicity and efficiency: Home Automation Expert.
The homeLYnk logic controller can be used in several ways:
- Gateway between KNX, Modbus, BACnet and IP
- Logic module providing memory function and event controller
- User interface based on a web server application

homeLYnk provides an interface to control all building functions. It can be used from local and mobile devices such as smartphones, tablets, PCs and touch panels.It enables to monitor and control:
- Lights, blinds, heating, and cooling
- Energy metering
- Scheduler
- IP camera
 

 

[Del91574]

That panel and the next gen of touchplate would be the winners in my book instead of hanging your hat on a single flash in the pan technology or communications format (proprietary)

Protocols supported alone.....IP, modbus and bacnet solve about 99% of the issues out there and are rock solid and reliable.

 

[Westcojack]

+1 DELInstallations
 
Centralized is the way to go on a larger home. Individual switches is 1901.

 

[pagalbandar]

Thanks, Everyone! Will likely go with a QS solution, so I can get the conditional logic features. We were already past the central load option in our wiring. (next house! )
 
Switching gears to home audio is 14/2 Gauge CL3 oxygen free copper the way to go ? Or do you recommend something else.

 

[kurtmccaslin]

Wire gage can be 12-18.   It depends on the length of run, speaker impedance, and power loss you are willing to accept.   The ANSI-TIA-EIA-570 standard has some specific recommendations.   
 
Here is the guide that I used:
 
0-25 ft   18ga
25-50ft   16ga
50-75ft    14ga
75+ ft      12ga
 
I used CL2 oxygen free copper

 

[pete_c]

Here utilized CL2 also.