HA System Control for 6500 sqft New Construction House

[crisco]

Here's my question, asked many times before, but with slightly different parameters: which whole house automation system is best for me? It is a brand new house, 6500 sq ft, already installed insteon light switches (approx. 125 of them), & GE concorde Ultra Security system (don't think the Insteon light switches were my best option but they were recommended by the Lifeware company.) All wires are already pulled to a central location. I am ready to build this system to do everything. Here's what I'd like it to do:

*control all my lighting ( all switches in the house are insteon)
*control irrigation system
*control security system (all contact closures on doors/windows installed, glass break monitors installed, motion sensors installed, smoke detectors installed)
*HVAC complete system control
*control ip cameras at front door & back door with security system (or attached to some other system)
*control whole house audio system & intercom system (11 different zones, all speakers already installed & wired). I want to have intercom system integrated with audio system, so intercom uses audio system speakers (have investigated Russound & Nuvo). Intercom system will also be front/back door bells.
*control distributed video system (I want cable boxes in central rack & be able to pull up on any of the 4 tv's)
*other misc things like: knowing if my garage doors are open & being able to close them; be able to control door locks
*future expansion

I prefer a system that is software based, i.e. one that can be installed (or preinstalled) on a dedicated PC on my rack & accessible via any computer on my home network, via any touch-screen pc, via i-phone or pda, & via any computer through the web. A software option allows me to use cheaper, off-the-shelf hardware. I want a system that can control ALL these sub-systems via one software interface, and allows future expansion. Everything integrated, i.e. home network, HA system, etc.!

That's the short story, many more details once I hear some responses. I have looked seriously at Cortexa, tried to look at CQC but don't understand it yet, and a few cursory looks at others. I have considered & gotten quotes from Control4, Lifeware, Vantage, & a few others but they don't interest me as much because a) they cost too much, & B) they seem too proprietary & limit my options for sub-systems. Plus I think I can do a better, more thorough job than the "professionals", at a far cheaper price, via choosing the best, simplest, most capable system out there for the price.

Please help, let the food fight begin!

Crisco

 

[Rupp]

You should give HomeSeer a trial. There's a new Concord plugin that should work with your security system and it will control virtually any hardware you can throw at it. The ISY Insteon plugin was just released as well. It's also on sale so it's a good time to jump in.

 

[AnthonyZ]

I typically try to be helpful here at Cocoontech (as I believe most of us are) but, despite the fact that I think I have a lot to offer to the discussion, I'm gonna keep my mouth shut. I'm a lowly "professional" who could never equal your capabilities (even though you don't know what the hell you're doing and thus asking the same tired, old, boring question that prevents me from spending any time at AVS Forum). Best of luck to you.

 

[icellama21]

If you have some software development and basic electrical skills, there is almost nothing you can't do. It is just a matter of time and patience. You are basically looking at 3 different families of controls.

1) Proprietary/restricted/dedicated hardware processors. For a restricted hardware platform you are limited to exactly what is supported and the programming is usually basic and functional, but not all-encompassing. You can start at the barebones, something like an Elk M1 or HAI omni, the user-friendly(cortexa, lifeware, etc), the pro-only or anywhere in between. Just different combinations of the hardware does this and doesn't do that.

2) Windows/Linux PC. Almost everything is controllable via RS232(serial), IP(ethernet) or contact closure. Just a matter of finding the interface specs and writing the software. Of course many great people have done this before. Never heard anyone complain about limitations with CQC, very easy to do whatever you want and add to, but steep learning curve. Some of the other software platforms(like homeseer) are a bit easier to configure. If you have time and are not sure what direction, check out the premise forums here. It is free and you can play until you get an idea of what you are looking for.

3) Integrated systems. We're talking universes of products here, all working in happy harmony. Usually the domain of the high-end pros. Pick and choose from the company catalog, pay big bucks for a service call if you want a scene to be a little bit brighter. I guess if you have all of the crestron or AMX software then maybe you can do whatever you want, but I'm assuming you don't.

Sometimes the best idea is to mix a bit of both. Use the dedicated hardware for the high-reliability tasks like security, simple automation tasks when you are gone, etc. Then use the PC based solution to customize, handle home entertainment, do more complex human-interaction tasks. The software packages usually interface with a few hardware panels and all of the hardware solutions have decent APIs if you can get them. I agree that it is silly to hire a pro if you enjoy the work yourself. If you are just doing it to save money, then it really comes down to how good of an analytical person/engineer are you and how much patience do you have. You'll never get it right the first time!

 

[crisco]

I typically try to be helpful here at Cocoontech (as I believe most of us are) but, despite the fact that I think I have a lot to offer to the discussion, I'm gonna keep my mouth shut. I'm a lowly "professional" who could never equal your capabilities (even though you don't know what the hell you're doing and thus asking the same tired, old, boring question that prevents me from spending any time at AVS Forum). Best of luck to you.

The "professionals" I was referring to are installers that have given me quotes in the $60,000-$80,000 range to install a whole-house system, far more $ than anyone needs to spend. My "professionals" comment was meant to convey my frustration that I've seen far more breath & depth of knowledge about Home Automation on this forum than from any of the "professional" installers in my area I've talked to about installing a system in my house. AnthonyZ--I apologize if you were offended by my "professionals" comment...don't be so sensitive!

 

[icellama21]

I'll give you an example of an early project I did for a friend. The house had a few security sensors and speakers already wired, at least 200 wires had to be retrofitted. It cost around 9K in hardware and would have been done in a 80 hour week if I was working on it full time. If it was a job I was hired for, I'd have to be a little bit neater and spend a lot of time discussing options, iterating through software interfaces, etc, so maybe 120 hours or more depending on how knowledgeable/helpful the homeowner is with pulling wires. The labor adds up fast, especially in a difficult house. My friend was lucky, no charge for time and he helped out so we got it all done super fast.

Elk M1 for security and basic automation.
22 RadioRA loads for lighting.
Russound CAM6.6 6-zone audio distribution system.
18 automated retrofit dampers and zone control for single furnace.
3 communicating thermostats and new wiring.
CQC for touchscreen interfaces and additional automation
2 security cameras and DVR
Basic structured wiring system demolition and install

 

[pete_c]

Personally I am biased to using Homeseer. I utilize HS and an HAI Omni Pro II.

An example of its use:

While I was starting to write in this thread my wife called me saying that the Lawn service was at the house and the sprinkler was running. She asked if I could shut off the sprinklers. I have shown her how to shut off the sprinklers via the touch screen interface but preferred me to do it.

I "paused" the sprinkler application and checked on the cameras to validate the system being paused and the lawn service doing their thing.

With the same system if I wanted to I could give the lawn service an small keychain remote that they could use to do the same.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Best thing to do is to run the free trials of various types of software. Like others have stated, one will 'click' with you better than others. For example, I have experience with Visual Basic, so HomeSeer was a natural for me.

I know others like Steve said that CQC just clicked with him better and that was a more natural choice for him.

So kick the tires on a few products and see what you think.

 

[royalj7]

Crisco,

I would say the best thing you could do is read, read, read. Believe it or not your request isn't that different from half a dozen or so others on the boards who have documented *extensively* their journey into HA. Once you've read till you think you're eyes will fall out, take a step back and think about your situation and draw up a initial "master" plan. Even though you will be setting up and integrating your HA in steps, you want atlest a notion of what you want the final thing to look like and do.

Once you have that we can help you more. I can tell you if you want a system that "does everything" and want to do it yourself, get ready for many wasted evenings and weekends, some frustration, with the occasional "this is cool as hell" moments.

--Jamie

 

[signal15]

I typically try to be helpful here at Cocoontech (as I believe most of us are) but, despite the fact that I think I have a lot to offer to the discussion, I'm gonna keep my mouth shut. I'm a lowly "professional" who could never equal your capabilities (even though you don't know what the hell you're doing and thus asking the same tired, old, boring question that prevents me from spending any time at AVS Forum). Best of luck to you.

There are two types of people installing HA for customers, there are *professionals*, and there are "professionals." The "professionals" that installed my neighbors system charged him $50k+ to install a system that doesn't do half of what my $1500 Elk install does. He was pissed when he came over and saw what I had done with mine and found out what the price was. I forget the name of the stuff he's using for HA, it was some brand I've never heard of before. Plus, they won't give him the capability to make changes to it himself. Every time he wants a rule changed, they come out with a laptop, make the change, and charge him $250 minimum.

I have a buddy that used to work for a local HA/Home Theatre place. They wouldn't touch anything under $100k, and this was over 10 years ago. Those guys knew what they were doing and would install well-supported equipment, and teach the homeowner how to make their own changes if they wanted that. Even though it was expensive stuff, it was on the cutting edge at the time. You can't say the same for many other installers. Between my neighbor's house, and the numerous stories I've heard of my buddy retrofitting houses from shoddy work or poor equipment choices, I'm under the impression that most installers are "professionals" and not *professionals*.

What percentage of installers frequent forums like this one or AVS Forum? There are thousands of installers out there, and I see a few on these forums. But, I don't see as many as I would hope. Either they know everything (doubtful), they are installing highly proprietary equipment with support solely from the manufacturer, or they are just whacking stuff in willy-nilly without full understanding of the capabilities.

As far as pricing goes, it really annoys me when I get a quote for something and the company quotes me some outrageous price for labor just because they think I either don't know how to do it, or I'm that averse to doing it that I will pay anything to get it done. Some of the quotes I've gotten for labor on things as simple as landscaping have worked out to be $750/hr or more (which I just ended up doing myself instead). Sure, installing HA is a skill that many people either don't want to learn, don't have the time to learn, or don't have the ability to learn. But if you're an installer and going into someone's house and quoting them $50k for 10 days of work and $8k worth of equipment and wiring (just like what happened with my neighbor), you're making yourself $525/hr in labor. Maybe some of these guys are super efficient and do great work which can justify a higher bill rate. But, the guys that did my neighbor's house completely took advantage of him and his lack of knowledge on the subject. Most of the time, it just insults me because the person giving me the quote assumes I'm a dumbass.

The big question is, how does one weed out the ""'s from the **'s? If 90% of the people out there give ridiculous quotes or install equipment with limited capabilities, then all that's going to do is motivate the homeowner to come to a site like this and start asking questions on how to do it themselves. The end result is the homeowner doing it themselves and succeeding, attempt to DIY and failing, or at least becoming better educated so they can make an informed decision when choosing an installer and being able to call BS when they see it.

Just the fact that you are a participating member here and on other forums shows that you likely know what you are doing and stay abreast on the latest tech, which is a whole hell of a lot more than anyone can say about most other companies out there. Unfortunately, you get the short end of the stick and lumped in with the bad guys when someone has a bad experience with any other installer. It would be the same deal if you were an auto mechanic, landscaper, attorney, doctor, or politician. There are good people in all of these fields, but the bad ones can really ruin the reputation for everyone else.

 

[sic0048]

Crisco,

I am a die hard DIYer. But once you start this process, you will find out that the real professionals earn their money. Yes, you can almost certainly get a system installed yourself for a fraction of the cost. But you'll spend years doing it, and want to quit several times before it is all over. Don't enter this thinking it is going to be easy and fun - it's not either. Plus it will be more expensive than you initially think. Most of the savings we experience as DIYers comes from the fact that we don't mind installing used equipment and we don't have labor costs.

I bet if you were quoted $60,000 - $80,000 for the install, you'll spend at least $15,000 - $20,000 yourself buying some used equipment. Plus you'll literally spend hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of man hours making it all work.

Personally I'd never be able to afford a professionally installed system (or justify the expense - either to my wife or when I resold the house). I also like this type of thing and consider it a hobby. Those two major reasons are what pushed my to DIY. I don't regret that move one bit, but the process has also taught me the value of real professionals.

 

[royalj7]

All I have to say to this, as someone who has done work for folks on a per job basis, is there isn't anything "wrong" with someone charging you $100 or $1,000,000/hr to do work. If they are not forcing you to do the work what have you lost? About the same amount of time the installer did giving you the quote. I think the inherent message is no one is worth XX/hr, where XX is an arbitrary number each person makes up. If you get a high quote for something, it isn't necessarily the person trying to take advantage of you, or they think you are a dumbass...in my case it could be I think working with an individual is going to be such a pain in *my* ass that I'm going to be well compensated for the trouble if I do the job. Or a dozen other things that could make a job in my eyes alot more involved than what the homeowner thinks it is.

I'm a DIY'er and I know it. I balk when I happen to get a quote for yard work or other hands-on tasks I know I can do. And if I get a quote that is way out of line with other ones I've got I either 1) throw the quote away and don't think another thought about it or 2) talk to the installer and see if there was some miscommunication between me and them that got the price all out of wack. I don't take it personally though.

What this doesn't need to be is a pissing match like which happens over at AVS...all the time.

 

[icellama21]

What this doesn't need to be is a pissing match like which happens over at AVS...all the time.

Why are these arguments even necessary. I doubt many "regular" professionals recruit clients from these boards. I myself get asked all the time to help out DIY-style people all the time, and many of them have already done their research and have basic construction and electrical skills. I'm shocked that more "professionals" don't offer consultation and design services a-la-carte to DIY-style people. It could be easy money if I ever was motivated to pursue it(usually I do it for free and then they offer me money later), and I'm sure it would fit in well with downturns in the business.

I don't really see why the "DIY" and the "professional" markets are so mutually exclusive. Why not use these boards and the DIY community to leverage business, to create buzz, to evangelize ideas, and YES, to pick up $$$$ from frustrated people. Why the hostility? I once got message on AVS from a pro crestron installer that was pure lava, apparently believing that little old me(someone who routinely writes 10k lines of high-security software code a week), could never master the crestron programming environment. Why anyone would assume that only they can do something and someone they have never met cannot, I'll never understand. Not wanting to add fire to the debate, these kinds of exchanges may indeed answer my question as to why they exist at all. I'm sure somewhere there is a smart "professional" who is using every opportunity to expand their business. I'd just like to see them stand up.

 

[sic0048]

Well I think that this thread is different from most on Cocoontech because the OP came looking for help (which is common). The problem was the way the OP immediately blasted all professionals, saying they charged too much and the OP could easily do the job BETTER THAN THE PROFESSIONALS. If that was the case, then why the need to ask for help with such a rudamentary (yet crucially important) question?

It's like someone blasting all mechanics as being too expensive - that anyone can change their oil and they can certainly do a better job than the mechanics - and then asking for help with how to change their oil.

PS - I can also understand that the OP is probably a little pissed at his Lifeware professionals and therefore may be blasting all professionals simply due to a typical "guilty by association" emotion. After all, he installed 125 Insteon switches based on their recommendations. I'd be a little pissed too. (Oh no, there I went and started a whole different argument )

I didn't mean to

I also hope that with a slight change of attitude, that the OP will continue to post questions and get good answers from the community. I really want my posts to show the OP the silliness of his thought processes. It is not my desire to shun, boycott, or torpedo the OP questions in the future.

 

[signal15]

I assume when the OP said "Better than professionals" he meant that he would learn the system and continue to tweak it himself and add to it for months or years after the initial install, versus an installer coming out and trying to get everything done in a week or two. At least that's what I'm thinking if I say I can do something better than a pro.

The OP got some good suggestions for software. He's probably reading the rest of these responses and shaking his head... or laughing maniacally at what he started.