Newbie: X10 for hardwire lighting????

[topdiggy2]

Hello:

I am designing a home automation system for a new construction and i have questions regarding X10 light switches. I have been doing some research comparing the different technologies and i dont want to go wireless. I like the idea of sending signals thru the powerline throughout the house to the different fixtures and switches.

I also understand that some technologies are just going to be more practicle than others.

With that being said, i have seen reviews of X10 technology not being as reliable as others. Some testimonies i have read say that the X10 has "problems" specifically in cases where you send the signal and it may or may not respond. Furthermore you dont have 2 way communication with X10 devices. So you cant tell the current state of the device (if a light is on or off). The technology that i am most leaning toward is UPB. However, the entry price of doing a whole house setup using UPB has me seriously considering cheaper options, specificaly, X10 Pro your ebay items!

Here is what i want to do or i want the ability to:

* Control & Program Automation thru Charmed Quark Controller & adequate PIM (compter inferace)
* Turn on/off & Dimm lights (indoor & outdoor)
* Turn on/off ceiling fans and control speed settings (if possible)
* Turn on/off fireplace
* Turn on/off room lamps
* Control motorized blinds & drapes (right now, just open and close. However, if i could control how much they open and close that would be great!)
* Control on/off on a mechanical TV lift (lift that brings the plasma tv up and down from its nook. has 2 stages, up or down)

Now, I am not too concerned with 2 way communication as with some simple applications (ie. i want the lights on/off, fireplace on/off...no guess work there), however, come to think of it....question #4.

I pretty much have a grasp on the front end aspect of controlling and programing. But getting down to selecting the most dependable hardware is where i have questions.

My questions are:

1. If i restrict the use of X-10 switches and relays to (hardwired) powerline ones, am i less likely to run into problems? Or are signal issues a genarl weakness of X10 period
2. The X10-pro Signal Amplifier Coupler Repeater, how does it operate? Does it need a hard line signal coming from my X10 interface? Or will it pick up existing signals on the circuit already?
3. X10 devices have hard addresses, how many address are possible using X10 in a system?
4. In what applications is 2 way communication necessary?

I think thats all the questions i have right now. Thank you in advance for your help!!!!

 

[Steve]

In a new house and considering the size of the Elk system you spec'd in another post, and using CQC, imho, you would be nuts to use x10. I know others would disagree saying it works great for them, but it is still 1970's technology and requires alot of care and feeding to make work right and maintain. The only reason to use x10 would strictly be a financial reason, and I would tell you to wait on CQC or trim some other area before you skimp on lighting. Believe me, you have no idea how frustrated you will be spending hours upon hours trying to find out why lights don't respond, where signal suckers are etc, not to mention the frustration with lights not coming on/off when supposed to. Nobody will disagree with me in that the best choice for a new home build is real hardwire lighting (not Powerline Control-PLC). But, as with everything, the best also costs the most. But hardwire will give you 100% reliability. Of the PLC technologies, personally I would go with in order - UPB, Insteon and x10. There is the potential for interference or issues with any of the powerline technologies, but I think UPB, especially with the latest revisions and Insteons price increases, delivers the best for the money. If I had to do it all over again, I would choose UPB again. Call Martin at Automated Outlet and I'm sure he can work up some really good discounted and/or quantity pricing on the Elk/CQC and UPB.

Also, I would consider having the Elk be your primary controller, not CQC. Use CQC as a backup. Elk M1, CQC and UPB is an excellent combination and is exactly what I use. UPB and/or Elk relays will do everything in your list except perhaps fan speeds. There are no really good fan speed selectors as far as I know.

 

[Rupp]

You definitely want to consider UPB or ZWave the newer technologies above X10. X10 is so prone to power line interference that most of our users have abandoned this technology.

 

[politics123]

I did new construction and z-wave. This is because I couldn't convince the builder to go hardwire (they did the electics). Z-wave is great, but if you're planning to go all out (and I consider somfy... which is very expensive... to be ALL OUT), go do a hardwire system, or at least plan for it.

eg: homerun your loads (even if you don't purchase centralite) or run cat5 cables to every switch location.

 

[123]

I'm Mr. Cheapo when it comes to Home Automation ... free HA software, used X10 Switchlincs, lots of electronic gadgetry from eBay, etc ... the ELK M1 is my only big-ticket item. It all works ... for me.

Given the size of your installation (you won't be able to f*rt without tripping a sensor!), money isn't exactly a constraint. So why in the world would you hamstring yourself with X10? Automated lighting becomes so ingrained in your daily life that when it fails it becomes a thorn in your hide ("Why is that @#!% light not on/off when it should be!?!"). Cut corners somewhere else if you must but don't skimp on lighting by going X10.

New construction? Great! Take advantage of having a blank slate and go for a hardwired lighting system. Otherwise, choose a PLC protocol that wasn't invented when Disco was king (thump, thump, oo-wah, oo-wah).

 

[topdiggy2]

Hello Guys -

Thanks for the information, i really appreciate everyones feedback. In the time that you guys have been posting, i have been tallying up exactly what i think i would need.

It boils down to:

64 - Light switches
12 - Dimmer Switches
35 - window drapes/blind modules **** see question below ****
2 - relay (???) to control hidden Plasma TV lift (saw these on ebay, thought it would be a cool install)

As far as expense, STEVE & 123 indicated that maybe money wasnt a issue, well, currently the pricing for one UPB light switch at Home Automated is like $70/ea. When i did the math thats $5,300 vs going cheap X10 @ $500 or less. Yes i understand that people have issues, but, really...is it worth paying $5k not to deal with them???

And help me understand, is the X10 signal issues just a one time thing, meaning you fix it and its set, or do you have to keep going back and recalibrating the system???

Also, I came across the somfy shades today POLITICS123...thanks for the heads up. I will be using several of their shades deck/skylight windows, but, i am also interested in old fashion motorized venectian blinds. Can anyone recommend a hardwired module i can use to control them?

You all also mentioned going with a hardwired system. Am i missing something, but, its UPB, insteon, x10 all hardwired systems??? Or is their another tier i am unaware of? If so, thats what i want. A hardwired system that i can tie-into elk or CQC.

Thanks

 

[Rupp]

Topdiggy2,
You may want to spend some time reading about X10 woes on the HomeSeer bulletin board. http://board.homeseer.com
You may want to consider Z-Wave in your search as well. This technology is a bit cheaper than UPB and any time you can avoid sending signals over the powerlines as in using X10 the better. X10 can be like black magic when troubleshooting. Something as simple as plugging in a new laptop or drill charger can cause all kinds of problems with X10 and with Insteon but to a lesser degree.

 

[Steve]

Even if you went x10, you would be crazy not to use a good quality lightolier type switch and I bet that will be more than $500. Personally, I would just skip automation entirely before I put > 60 x10 devices in, unless you are retired and want to dedicate alot of time to it. Yes, alot of it is up fron work getting it all going, but one day you may plug in a new toaster or tv and kill the whole system and you will wonder what the heck happened, so its really a lifelong battle.

Yes, you are a bit confused - There are 3 ways you can do lighting - Hardwire, Powerline Control (PLC) and wireless. You said you did not want to go wireless which would be Zwave and others. PLC is x10, Insteon and UPB - those devices communicate over your house electric wiring. Hardwire has 2 type, homerun where all your lighting loads are wired directly to a panel and the switches are also homerun but are low voltage controls only, not high voltage. There is another type of hardwire that uses traditional electrical wiring with an additional Cat5 control wire. That is made by ALC/OnQ. EDT was another type, but they went belly up. Dedicated hardwire is best because it is a closed system, short of a power failure or hardware malfunction, the system will always work. PLC is subject to noise and other anomalies on the electrical lines in your house. Wireless has the same issues as PLC, just without wires. So, the only virtual 100% reliable system is a dedicated hardwire, not PLC or wireless. But, hardwire will cost you more, probably closer to $15 or $20k depending on the system.

With that quantity, trust me, you will not pay $70 per UPB switch. Call Automated Outlet before you calculate a real price - you may be pleasantly surprised. But by all means, unless you have spare time and want to invest in meters, etc and do alot of troubleshooting, stay away from x10. Not to be repetitive, but please believe that your lighting control is not the place to skimp.

Edit: Forgot to give you this link. Here are the lighting systems to consider for Elk.

And since Rupp snuck his post in while I was typing , as I mentioned above he is right about plugging things in can cause problems, but I want to state that the same can happen with Zwave or other wireless system. Except instead of plugging something in to the powerline, it is turning some new wireless device on that can cause interference. And besides anything else, imho, I think its easier to troubleshoot a powerline issue than a wireless one. How can I fix what I can't see? While there may be specialized equipment for seeing wireless, signal and noise meters are built right into the free UPStart software for UPB and that's usually all you will ever need to troubleshoot a problem. And my favorite - ask Rupp to show you the post on the Homeseer forum where a guy went crazy trying to figure out why his Zwave system wasn't working and it turned out to be a large kitchen pot in front of a switch. I am not trying to knock wireless, it works great for alot of people. I just want you to have honest and balanced information and knowing that you can have issues either on PLC or wireless. The only way to avoid those types of issues is true hardwired. If I had the opportunity to build again, I would with no doubt put a hardwire system in, at least for critical loads, then maybe supplement non critical stuff with UPB. That's another nice thing about the Elk - you can easily build a hybrid system just by using a second serial expander. So, look at it carefully and consider rolling the extra expense in your mortgage, that's what I would do.

 

[AutomatedOutlet]

Steve,

You bring up some good points. The "better" quality x10 switches will actually cost more than many of the UPB switches. Same is true with Zwave.

Although we sell X10, UPB, Zwave, and a few others, I still will stick with the UPB for my own uses (I am fully UPB both in my own home and in the office). I think it's the best bang for the buck AND provides the best reliability other than hardwired (although I personally wouldn't do hardwired in a new construction because of the lack of flexibility - yes, we sell hardwired too).

 

[mcelectric]

Hello:

I am designing a home automation system for a new construction and i have questions regarding X10 light switches. I have been doing some research comparing the different technologies and i dont want to go wireless. I like the idea of sending signals thru the powerline throughout the house to the different fixtures and switches.

I also understand that some technologies are just going to be more practicle than others.

With that being said, i have seen reviews of X10 technology not being as reliable as others. Some testimonies i have read say that the X10 has "problems" specifically in cases where you send the signal and it may or may not respond. Furthermore you dont have 2 way communication with X10 devices. So you cant tell the current state of the device (if a light is on or off). The technology that i am most leaning toward is UPB. However, the entry price of doing a whole house setup using UPB has me seriously considering cheaper options, specificaly, X10 Pro your ebay items!

Here is what i want to do or i want the ability to:

* Control & Program Automation thru Charmed Quark Controller & adequate PIM (compter inferace)
* Turn on/off & Dimm lights (indoor & outdoor)
* Turn on/off ceiling fans and control speed settings (if possible)
* Turn on/off fireplace
* Turn on/off room lamps
* Control motorized blinds & drapes (right now, just open and close. However, if i could control how much they open and close that would be great!)
* Control on/off on a mechanical TV lift (lift that brings the plasma tv up and down from its nook. has 2 stages, up or down)

Now, I am not too concerned with 2 way communication as with some simple applications (ie. i want the lights on/off, fireplace on/off...no guess work there), however, come to think of it....question #4.

I pretty much have a grasp on the front end aspect of controlling and programing. But getting down to selecting the most dependable hardware is where i have questions.

My questions are:

1. If i restrict the use of X-10 switches and relays to (hardwired) powerline ones, am i less likely to run into problems? Or are signal issues a genarl weakness of X10 period
2. The X10-pro Signal Amplifier Coupler Repeater, how does it operate? Does it need a hard line signal coming from my X10 interface? Or will it pick up existing signals on the circuit already?
3. X10 devices have hard addresses, how many address are possible using X10 in a system?
4. In what applications is 2 way communication necessary?

I think thats all the questions i have right now. Thank you in advance for your help!!!!

 

[mcelectric]

Hello:

I am designing a home automation system for a new construction and i have questions regarding X10 light switches. I have been doing some research comparing the different technologies and i dont want to go wireless. I like the idea of sending signals thru the powerline throughout the house to the different fixtures and switches.

I also understand that some technologies are just going to be more practicle than others.

With that being said, i have seen reviews of X10 technology not being as reliable as others. Some testimonies i have read say that the X10 has "problems" specifically in cases where you send the signal and it may or may not respond. Furthermore you dont have 2 way communication with X10 devices. So you cant tell the current state of the device (if a light is on or off). The technology that i am most leaning toward is UPB. However, the entry price of doing a whole house setup using UPB has me seriously considering cheaper options, specificaly, X10 Pro your ebay items!

Here is what i want to do or i want the ability to:

* Control & Program Automation thru Charmed Quark Controller & adequate PIM (compter inferace)
* Turn on/off & Dimm lights (indoor & outdoor)
* Turn on/off ceiling fans and control speed settings (if possible)
* Turn on/off fireplace
* Turn on/off room lamps
* Control motorized blinds & drapes (right now, just open and close. However, if i could control how much they open and close that would be great!)
* Control on/off on a mechanical TV lift (lift that brings the plasma tv up and down from its nook. has 2 stages, up or down)

Now, I am not too concerned with 2 way communication as with some simple applications (ie. i want the lights on/off, fireplace on/off...no guess work there), however, come to think of it....question #4.

I pretty much have a grasp on the front end aspect of controlling and programing. But getting down to selecting the most dependable hardware is where i have questions.

My questions are:

1. If i restrict the use of X-10 switches and relays to (hardwired) powerline ones, am i less likely to run into problems? Or are signal issues a genarl weakness of X10 period
2. The X10-pro Signal Amplifier Coupler Repeater, how does it operate? Does it need a hard line signal coming from my X10 interface? Or will it pick up existing signals on the circuit already?
3. X10 devices have hard addresses, how many address are possible using X10 in a system?
4. In what applications is 2 way communication necessary?

I think thats all the questions i have right now. Thank you in advance for your help!!!!

 

[mcelectric]

I see you said 64 switches, but how many loads do you have?

 

[BLH]

2) Takes X10 signal on power line and repeats it back on the other phase of the home.
No hard wire to a controller for the signals.

3) 16 House Code and 16 Unit Codes. 256 unique addresses, but if you want to control more then one. All on the same address will respond to a command.

I had X10 and it can have problems. I then had Smarthome's older X10 compatible stuff and moved to Insteon. Though it is a few years old now. Many things are still not Insteon compatible like motion sensors or any security type things. Without some third party things and personally I feel Insteon still has problems.

 

[123]

"I would just skip automation entirely before I put > 60 x10 devices in, unless you are retired and want to dedicate alot of time to it."

LOL! Perfect!

"And help me understand, is the X10 signal issues just a one time thing, meaning you fix it and its set, or do you have to keep going back and recalibrating the system???"

It works great and then it doesn't ... and then it does again. You think "What the heck changed in my house that caused that?" and the hunt begins. Eventually, to maintain your sanity, you resign yourself to the fact that X10 is a "best effort" system ... and sometimes it doesn't try hard enough.

The X10 relay-switch in my kitchen is a lazy bastard. Most of the time it works fine and then it chooses not to (like the time it wouldn't accept commands for a whole week ... I guess it took a vacation). Is it the CFLs in the range hood? The fan motor in the range hood? The LED night-light? The espresso machine (horrors, no!)? You look for the culprit by turning all sorts of stuff on and off ... so much fun! Would an X10 signal meter help? Probably ... definitely if you plan to install 64 of these l'il devils.

 

[Photon]

I've been using X10 technology since the early '80s on a much smaller scale than you call for. I think my largest system was under 16 modules. I haven't tried a newer technlogy system, so I can't make comparisons on personal experience. I do have some opinions based on my personal experience.

I have had good performance from my system, but it is imperfect. I refuse to control any heating appliance because it could take just one failure to cause substantial damage to the house and any occupants. It is not important to me if a lamp goes on at the wrong time or won't turn off as programmed 100% of the time. If a space heater comes on uncommanded, it could be fatal. The only significant conflict I've had with X10 modules or controllers is when they were near a power strip with a surge protector.

I really like the availability of local control with X10. At one time I had more 16-button controllers than I had lamp modules. I discovered while it is great to have various lamps and outdoor lights on autopilot, I still want to be able to power on, off and dim locally. Very inexpensive and versitile to do this with X10. When a guest stays with us for a while it is simple to plop a controller on their nightstand so they can kill the room lights without having to get out of bed to hit the wall switch. Likewise, they can turn on the hall light before they leave the bedroom. After the guests depart, I can return the controller and lamp modules to their normal duty in about 60 seconds. I don't know how some of the other technologies handle local control, but I've had minimal problems with X10 in the eight houses the Air Force decided I should live in. I guess that is another advantage to plug-in modules and controllers. You move; they move with you.

If I were in your situation, I would take a long, hard look at newer technologies. In the end, I'll bet some of my X10 controllers and lamp/appliance modules would find their way in as well. I can't imagine any system more reliable than a hardwired system, though. I would begin my research with ONQ-ALC.