Rain 8 or similar system

[programmergeek]

I am going to have to tie in a watering system to a home automation system. Specifically a HAI system is in the house and I will have someone ditch witch the tubing but the valves and the controls are up to me. I can also use a PC to control this the important thing is that they can program it and control it form the pc or a touch screen. Is there a good resourse for this out there on how to set it up, I have very little experance with this.

Trying to get a head start before my meeting tommrow.

 

[JonW]

There are some tech notes on the HAI website for both the RAIN8 UPB and serial versions. I've been using the UPB version for several years and have never needed to touch it since the day I installed it. I previously used it with my HomeVision system and now use it with my OmniPro system. It works very reliably.

 

[Michael McSharry]

It is not clear if your needs are on the design of the layout for proper coverage, water pressure and control variability or if that part is all being designed by a landscaper. The wiring from the field will be routed to some common junction or if your site is very large then there may be multiple control drops and perhaps an exterior junction. It also seems like your interest is with giving the installler some means of testing the installation which means what you will want to use in the long term is not necessarily what you want now.

The Rain8 family has several control options with the preferred choice being a directed wired solution with the Rain8Net. This implies that your panel or your computer will need to be wired direclty or over IP to the junction where the field wiring is routed. For basic testing the demo program from the Rain8 manufacturer WGL runs on a PC and provides a simple on/off control of each value on the module(s).

For the longer term your control decision will likley be driven by the capabilities you want to achieve for irrigation control. It could be a simple timer from the HAI panel or a smart control that optimizes water utilization based upon environmental, soil and foilage conditions such as mcsSprinklers.

 

[pete_c]

I had my sprinkler box in the MW installed in a landscaping berm which is about 1-2 feet elevated near the front of the home. The manifold / 10 zones switches are all in one berm. It makes it easy to service and manually start each zone. The wires run along side of the home. The sprinkler control boxes at both locations are in the garage.

In FL the sprinkler system 6 zones was installed in 3 sprinkler boxes below ground level. The sprinkler boxes are close to the water source but the wiring is underground and goes across the property under the front walk and driveway. These are more difficult to service and the long path (over 100 ft) may be problematic in the future. Personally I would put the sprinkler boxes / cabling on the other side of the home nearer the control box; done by subcontractor during contruction and at the time my meetings with the contractor were more related to house infrastructure.

Some folks like to utilize a copper manifold instead of a plastic PVC style manifold. In the midwest I have 4 heads in each zone (10) with zones from the periferal in, middle round and internal out. I have "quiet" heads due to some noise restrictions. In FL there is hardly any grass so the coverage are more for the shrubs etc.

I was present when the sprinkler system was installed in the MW. I asked the person laying the tubing to add a "few" runs which I utilized for some infrastructure to berms, trees and Mailbox on the periferal edges of the property (which didn't exists when the sprinkler system tubing was installed). I gave the installer some extra monies to do said extras (1.5" PVC flexible tubing).

I also added a supplimental water pump to increase the pressure via the 1" copper main feed to sprinkler system. (Davey pump). In the midwest where I live also needed to add an outside RPZ valve which I have to remove before the winter. My sprinkler heads are not self draining so I clear my lines in the fall via a connection near the RPZ valve (also have shutoffs on the ingress and egress of the RPZ valve plus internal (inside) shutoff. Recently also added a water flow meter inside of the home.

I utilize a couple of Rain8's today (about 6 years now in place) and mcsSprinklers. Attached is a picture of my Rain8 / mcsSprinklers setup.

 

[felixrosbergen]

pete_c:

a bit OT, but what do you use to measure the soil moisture level and do you find it a reasonable indicator for the watering needs? I'm primarily asking for grass, but possible for shrubs too.

 

[Michael McSharry]

For general irrigation you will find very good results using ET-based algorithms. Benchmarking has shown almost identical control solutions between calculated ET vs. measured with tensiometer class sensors. The installation cost and maintenance really make soil moisture measurement cost prohibitive for the average consumer. Use of low cost sensor and poor installation considerations make for poor control.

This year I am evaluating the Vegitronix moisture sensor which is a new technology. My test setup uses a WebControl module to provide the A/D conversion for the sensor, local temperature and humidity measurement and IP interface for data transfer. The attached shows the probe's performance to observe the soil moisture in a desert climate using a drip irrigation system.

Given that the only real variable in this climate and this test is the solar effects it can be seen that the voltage lows range from about 1.6 volts to 1.4 volts depending upon the temperature highs that range from about 80 to 110 for moisture loss over a 48 hour period. This means that is looks promising for a low cost way to measure measure for purpose of control. Control points would need to be determined, but the behavior of the sensor is relatively linear for the range of interest so this step would not be too difficult with a little experimentation.

Even though it is technically adequate, it still is a pain to install the instrumentation considering the electronics need to be protected from the elements and the results will be no better than that received from an ET calculation. Depending upon the degree of microclimate there is likely the ability to use measurements from neighborhood sources such as weatherunderground or AWS and regional data from Weather.com or NWS and not incur any instrumentation costs or maintenance.

 

[felixrosbergen]

ok..what is an ET based algorithm?

 

[Michael McSharry]

Do a google on Evapotranspiration. There is a wealth of information. It is essentially the moisture loss into the atmosphere through foilage. Since the root system supplies the moisture, it is a measure of the amount of moisture that needs to replenished in the soil. There are many different studies that have tried to represent it mathematically with the base calculation represented as ETo. Crop coefficients are applied to account for loss throught cactus vs. grass vs. corn etc.

 

[pete_c]

MavRic,

I use the ET values calculated by mcsSprinklers. Initially my system is following set rules by local area watering codes. Secondarily using weather data, wind and soil moisture. I set a minimum percentage of soil moisture. Its been an odd spring here with less rain than normal but some heavy rains. I turned my sprinkler system on mid May and other than me testing it; not really been on more than 3 times on its own. Typically the lawn is cut every week. Around this time of the year with a lot of rain I cut it shorter. This past month its been cut longer every week. (instruction to landscapers).

I attribute this mostly to the ET calculations => soil moisture %'s. My local neighbors utilizing standard MFG timers. Other than a typically installed external rain sensor you have little control over the watering schedule. Neighbors' schedules as they are set today have already increased their water bills into the $300-400 ranges (or more like one neighbor having a $900 water bill) unless they have manually interacted shutting off their sprinkler systems. With inground pools they have less to water so it really doesn't make sense that their water bills would go up unless they are still using timer schedules. I'm guessing some neighbors have and some have not. (they are in the 16k yearly real estate tax range and maybe don't care about a $400 plus water bill relating to just their sprinkler system).

Connecting your sprinkler system to one of the two HA panels really doesn't buy you anything but a bit more control over the scheduling, remote access and a nice touch screen interface. Additionally using Rain8's with a simple timer scheduler really doesn't buy anymore than a typical MFG's sprinkler timer and remote access (and a "pretty" touch screen interface). If you don't pay for your lawn sprinkling water then it really wouldn't matter as much. Thats my personal opinion though.

 

[felixrosbergen]

Generally do most of you find the actual precip figures from TheWeatherChannel to be pretty inaccurate? Even though my zipcode is a relatively small area, sometimes it shows percipitation when i know i havent received any or the other way around.

I am thinking i need a 1 wire rain tipping bucket to properly measure it myself before applying any type of ET calculations.

 

[Steve]

I do not want to hijack this thread but since it can relate to the OPs question and Michael has been here, I will ask... I posted a question over on the CQC forum related to the way the default run timer on the Rain8Pro/net works. The problem is that as long as CQC is running with its driver connected to the Rain8 the default run timers don't work. They work whenever CQC is not connected whether it be by onboard button, WGL demo program or even if CQC is shut down or the RS232 pulled while running. But if CQC is still connected and happy then the default timers don't work. So - if I manually (or cqc) starts a zone but cqc never stops it, it will still runaway and never shut off. I think that's a problem and not the way it is intended to work. Some guesses are that its related to polling or something.

So... I guess my question is - does this happen with mcsSprinkler, or Homeseer, or Mainlobby? Is it just the way CQC is interacting with the unit that is disabling the run timer? Any ideas?

 

[pete_c]

I have two Rain tipping buckets (one is a Dallas Instruments labeled but sold by AAG years ago and one is a homebrew). Both work fine.

does this happen with mcsSprinkler, or Homeseer, or Mainlobby?

I have Mainlobby (1st gen) but don't utilize it; but do recall their TS Sprinkler interface demo years ago at one of the EHx shows. It was aesthetically pleasing 5 years or so back.

It doesn't happen with HS/mcsSprinkler and my Rain8 setup.

Here's the setup relating to the Rain8 timers. Over the years I have seen "runaway" sprinkler zones (maybe twice in the last 5-6 years) and "fixed" that concern with manually connecting to the Rain8s to reconfigure them.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Hi Pete;

Just to clarify, your WGL internal timers WILL work while HomeSeer/mcsSprinklers is connected (via serial port) to it and running?

 

[pete_c]

It is assumed though because of what I done with HS / mcsSprinklers in vivo while sprinklers / application were active and what I have seen visually (sprinklers running).

I can put it thru its paces testing anyway specified. Detail a test for said feature (or how you would test) and I will give it a try.

I have never attempted intentionally to see this work in vivo.

I have the ability to also run the stand alone version as I have another server next to HS server and switching the serial connections from the Rain8's would not be an issue...so I can validate said functions two ways if you would like (I am bored lately so have been reworking my main floor sound system integrating it with my Russound adding the garage and outside deck)

 

[Michael McSharry]

It appears that CQC is periodically accessing the Rain8Net valve, hence resetting the unit's timer. mcsSprinklers does not normally defeat the safety provisions designed into the Rain8Net. It will command a postion, confirm that the position was achieved, repeat if necessary and then have no communications with the valve it until the scheduled time off. It will periodically poll the counter/switch and this does not reset the timer if the user has something connected to this input. Some users still want the control at the host and a re-command of the valve position every minute and mcsSprinklers makes that option available. Similiar provisions also exist for pump control where the failure implications of a pump valve not turning on is more severe than the failure mode of a valve remaining on. mcsSprinklers operation is the same when running standalone or as a Homeseer plugin.

With the Rain8Net there is more latitude in the communication architecture with the dedicated line than with one that uses the powerline such as the Rain8X10 or Rain8UPB. As more traffic is added to the powerline the probability of collisions increase and the reliability decreases. It is not at all obvious if command repeats or continuous polling should be introduced onto the powerline. This is especially true when multiple valves are being controlled with parallel scheduling. In the case of the standard Rain8UPB the firmware is expecting no other UPB powerline activity and if it does occur at the same time as the Rain8UPB communication then it will become confused and unintended valve control will result. This is not the case of the Rain8UPB PRO. The safety times in the Rain8X10 and Rain8UPB operate the same way as the Rain8Net.

Weather.com and NWS are used by mcsSprinklers for forecast information. They are not used for rainfall. Rainfall needs to come from a more local source and most that live in metro areas will have some neighbor or school pumping rainfall data through weatherunderground or weatherbug. If this is not available then a rain bucket that has a computer interface can be used and this data then can be uploaded for the next neighbor's benefit.