Setting up smokes on M1G Elk

[apostolakisl]

http://www.totalbarcode.com/prodimages/gesecurity/400.pdf

This pdf gives a summary of what the letters stand for.

http://www.totalbarcode.com/prodimages/gesecurity/400.pdf

There is a model with both end of line relay and built in sounder, 449CSTE. In my mind, this would be the best unit for around the house. Each unit would signal trouble (clean me) to the panel, eol relay is built in, they all have sounders (need to intall a reversing relay at the panel for all to sound simultaneous), they all alarm the system in the event of smoke or heat.

The 449 CSRH unit could be used in the kitchen. It would report only heat to the panel, but it would sound locally for smoke. So your burnt toast doesn't call the fire department but still gets you into the kitchen to check it out. This unit does not report cleaning to the panel.

 

[ecborgoyn]

Thanks for the info on the GE/ESL/... smoke detectors.

What about the System Sensor devices? It looks as if the 2-wire i3 family of devices CAN transmit a 'clean me' indication to either the M1G panel or the 2W-MOD2 module. And the 'Clean me' indication is separate from the device/wiring trouble indication. is this correct? Granted that I would still need to check each device on the loop to determine which device(s) are indicating 'clean me'. But at least the panel would have a separate indication.

Is this the correct behavior of the System Sensor i3 series? (at least the 2-wire devices). I also understand that the SS 4-wire devices might implement the 'clean me' indication as the GE devices do.

I'm being emphatic in my questioning as this separate maintenance indication capability would be a PRO in the 2-wire column as I perform a 2-wire vs 4-wire comparison.

Of course, and as it's been noted many times, the 4-wire implementation with individual zones DOES add specificity. down to the device.

Thanks for the continued answers and discussion.

 

[apostolakisl]

4 wire features:

Can connect to any standard alarm panel on any zone (the main feature).
There is no proprietery language between the panel and the smoke detector.
Also, you can connect as many as you want on one zone daisy chained along (for all intents and purposes)
Come with various features such as auxillary relays, eol/malfuntion warning relays, built in sounders, built in heat.
Require reversing relay to sound all detectors if one trips (pretty sure this is true of all brands)

2-wire:
Requires an alarm panel that is compatible with the specific unit
Only works on the specified zone on the panel (16 on the elk)
Has limits to the number of units (likely still more than you would need)
Has simplified wiring (just 2 conductors)
Has opportunity for special communication, like specific "clean me" vs generic "trouble", but this is unit/panel specific.
Also have features available including sounders, auxillary relay.
Require reversing relay to sound all detectors (I am pretty sure this is true for all brands).


In my opinion, the generic "trouble" suffices. The units don't need cleaning hardly ever, like years and years.

I would summarize the main differences as
1) most panels restrict you to 1 zone for 2-wire detectors
2) somewhat limited selection of brands/models with 2-wire
3) simplified wiring for 2 wires
4) slightly more info available at the panel with certain 2 wire detectors/panels.

 

[ecborgoyn]

Thanks for the excellent summary.

As of this writing, I'm leaning toward a 2-wire configuration with the System Sensor i3 devices (w/sounder). I'm replacing a set of 2-wire devices. The cabling is already configured for the 2-wire loop. So a save a bit of time and reduce the risk of wiring errors. I will only an absolute max of eight devices in the loop. Plus I'm OK with having all devices in one zone for simplicity.

Thanks again.

 

[Del91574]

Lou's missing a few points in his comparison, however I'm not going to argue a point for a sake of a point.

System Sensor, for example, you could use a 2WMOD-2 an RRS-MOD for a total of 12 detectors, which would be "converted" to a 4 wire input, allowing you to run multiple zones of 2 wire detectors, as well as facilitate a maintenance signal at the panel, either to a dedicated zone or as a trouble on the fire zone itself. With a large enough supply, you can run 12 detectors per 2WMOD and RRS combination, and provide for local test input and maintenance signal. I have yet to see residential install that exceeded 12 detectors or ran multiple zones of fire alarm that couldn't be served by this method compared to multiple 4 wire smokes and zones.

GE used to make a module that did the same, I can't remember the exact model number,I think it was a 505, however it did the same thing as the SS unit.

Not all 4 wire units are created or function the same, as DSC for one, doesn't play nice with panels that switch the negative for the power connection, not to mention the fault time for the fire zone may need to be modified, again, DSC smoke detector specific, as with certain panels, they create a trouble or maintenance signal because of their design.

ESL/GE/whoever UTC calls them now....had issues with their 700 series, and both those and the 500 series are almost impossible to service the chamber on without having a spare, the plastic tends to break easily.

Bosch smokes (formerly DS) used to use the same head with different bases for 2 or 4 wire, but it's been a few years since I used them.

Irregardless of the type/# of conductors, I'd recommend staying away from ionization detectors in any residential application and install PE/thermal units, provided the enviroment/mounting location does not come too close to or exceed the thermal's rating, such as high up on a peaked/cathedral ceiling.

 

[ddennerline]

The configuration that Lou mentioned above is how I am going to add fire protection. I purchased five GE 449CTE. I will run one FPLR 4-wire to each detector in series. The last detector in the loop would require and end-of-line resistor for the notification zone. Each detector’s power supervision/failure relay will be wired to a separate 2-wire (FPLR) back to separate Elk zone. I went back-n-forth on whether to use sounders and reversing relay. Instead, I am adding a few extra speakers around house to meet the notification requirements. This configuration would use six zones.

 

[rexwilson]

I'm a little late to this topic, but I was searching for answers and found my way here. I'm looking to install a bunch of 4-wire smokes to a new Elk M1.
I'm considering getting the System Sensor 4WTR-B, which says it has a built in "form C" relay. It doesn't specifically call this an end-of-line relay, so I'm confused. I want to use each one as a separate zone, and will home-run wire each one back to the main panel. Does anybody know are these 4WTR-B's with built in relays suitable to use standalone? Or do I also need an addition EOL relay? Thanks in advance for you rhelp.

 

[Del91574]

You will need a separate power supervision relay. Look at P3, the diagram showing how the units are to be connected.

I would strongly recommend picking a different installation method than tying multiple 4 wire detectors on multiple zones of the panel. It's introducing a whole slew of items that would need to be considered which govern the operation of the system itself, IMHO, which the end product doesn't justify the issues and inherent design problems.

 

[jpmargis]

You should have started a new thread, but to answer your question, you need a separate EOL relay as shown on the data sheet.

Also, please follow the chaining scheme shown on the data sheet.

 

[newalarm]

You will need a separate power supervision relay. Look at P3, the diagram showing how the units are to be connected.

I would strongly recommend picking a different installation method than tying multiple 4 wire detectors on multiple zones of the panel. It's introducing a whole slew of items that would need to be considered which govern the operation of the system itself, IMHO, which the end product doesn't justify the issues and inherent design problems.

By 'separate power supervision relay', you mean EOLR-1 right?

I apologize if i missed this somewhere, but I am confused what is the issue with multiple zones for smoke detectors. I know, DEL, you had recommended an addressable system, and not to do multiple zones for the ELK, but can you explain what are the dangers/ downsides of this? Is it an issue with resetting the smokes by interrupting the power?

Thanks for your patience.

 

[Del91574]

Yes, an EOLR-1.
Addressable is only going to really make sense when you start having 15-20 detectors or above IMHO. Is it really that mission critical to know which detector out of say 7-10 (typical 4+ bedroom 3-4K sq ft. house) generated the alarm? Is it that difficult to see the solid red LED on the affected unit?

First, if you have smoke detectors with sounders, I would assume the installation of a reversing relay. Using a reversing relay, the fire alarm circuit will go into trouble upon reversal....now you have X smoke detectors going into trouble and restoring for each time the temporal sounds (although can be smoothed using resistors, etc). So an individual alarm event will cause X (times each zone) troubles/restorals to be sent to the CS, not to mention locally (though it should latch in alarm/trouble). Now, assuming all are running off the same switched power source, even if no reversing relay, upon a reset you are going to send X amount of zones into trouble each time you go to reset....

Now, you say you're going to provide some sort of workaround (which really isn't recommended) to provide an individual fire reset per smoke, which ends up introducing X (times each zone) ways the fire alarm would need to be reset...how does that work for end user? How many menus or similar does someone need to scroll through to reset the foyer smoke detector (think about it) ? If the alarm goes off, is it prudent to walk around the house to see which detector went off or leave the house? If you were walking around the house and came across fire, would it really make a difference that you determined the alarm was valid?

 

[newalarm]

Thank you for your response. I am starting to understand, but having not yet installed the smokes or dealt with them, I am a little confused about resetting and relaying trouble to CS. But I will do my homework and read up on it.

I purchased three EOLR-1s to terminate each zone.

My problem is that my areas (smoke detector zones) would be in different parts of the building/property. The garage is separate from the house, and would be locked. the basement rental would be rented and I can't just go barging in (technically). My theory was, If you know what zone tripped it, you can run to the zone and deal with the issue.

What I mean by 'deal with the issue' is mostly for a false alarm. Obviously, I am not going to play firefighter; I am a do-it-yourself kind of person but there are limits

My units do not have sounders. reason being, we already have a full/by code (meaning one smoke in each room) 120volt system with sounders. The M1G fire/CO system goes through the speakers to warn of danger. The M1G is a secondary smoke system, with 1-2 smokes per floor (not in each bedroom). I really was looking to monitor the house so that in event we are away, or asleep, authorities are alerted sooner, than later.

 

[Del91574]

Based on a prior post, I believe your garage should not be a smoke detector, but a heat detector. Solves 1 issue. You're never going to fix the reset issue, any attempt to do such is going to complicate the use of the panel for an end user (reset X or Y?) and require more menus, scrolling, keypresses, etc. etc.

A maintained and properly installed fire system should not false, period. People confuse the 120V or battery units with system smokes...huge difference in quality. Yes, system hardware fails or hiccups, however my smokes have been up and running for about 4 years in this house (12 in total, + heats) and in my prior house, (10 + heats), going back 15 years...how many falses in that time on both systems? None.

In your case, honestly, I would not run multiple fire zones for the house, it's not going to serve really any purpose IMHO on a 50/50 viewing of the LED on the detector (assuming 2 detectors). If you are worried about your tennant setting off an alarm and not being able to barge in, why not install a heat detector (or multiples).

I'll point out a huge suit that happened at one of the colleges we service, far larger application and more complex panel:
There are multiple system smoke detectors installed within the dorm spaces and common areas. There were really no false alarm problems (or prealarm for that matter, different application again). The students in a general area smeared the screens on the detectors with peanut butter (or similar) to block the sensing ports. No trouble ever came up on the panel, device was still there, functioning. Sensitivity reports were within normal realms. Testing was performed by maintenance dept. using test switch on detector (within code) and visual inspection (from floor) you couldn't see the blocked chamber(s). You know what happened? They had a fire in the section with the obscured smokes....no alarm ever went off. People that lived in that room stated they were worried they were going to set off the alarm doing whatever, so they went their own route to prevent such....

Same thing happened during an audit (although annual testing should've turned up the issues earlier) in a apartment complex/high rise after they got hit by lightning.... analog system again. Found up to 25-30% of the units had their detection removed or capped off (so no systems troubles existed) during remodel, painting, etc, also found battery operated smokes in the locations where system smokes once resided.That said, shame on the contractors that did that sort of thing, in addition to the complex's management/inspection company for not being thorough.

The point I'm trying to throw out is you're subjecting another party to your system, additional items need to be considered, including what the residency codes are going to say, not to mention you're subjecting a system to a 2nd party and locked area where anything can happen or is possible. I'd put the testing of smokes using canned smoke or a punk in the realm of testing a system weekly per the manual...exists on paper but nobody really practices it, except for some pros.