Smurf Tube size

[felixrosbergen]

Gents,

My plan is to not have any Cat5e or RG6 put into the new house by the builder, instead i have him put in several 2" PVC conduits from basement to attic and at all locations where i want any type of media outlet (Cat5e, RG6, IR, Serial, whatever) i will have a LV mudring with a flexible conduit (e.g. smurf tube) runnign up to the attic or down to the basement.

The smurftube would have a max lenght of abotu 9' for 2nd floor to attic runs and probabaly only 5' or so from ground floor to basement.

Since they are only running up/down to attic/basement i expect the runs to be relatively straight with few turns. If the LV udring is nailed to a stud then the smurftube and go straight up the stud with some clamps.

I am trying to figure out the right size conduit. Looking at HomeDepot it seems that 3/4" is pretty common and has connectors and stuff to the LV bracket (Organge Carlon stuff).

Ofcourse not all places may get 2RG6QS and 2 Cat5e, but generally if that can fit i think i can fit most of my needs. I dont' plan to run component cabling or anythink like that. At the main TV location i've asked for a 2" conduit to basement for flexibility (possilby HDMI from media PC/server downstrairs or may even put surroudn amp in the basement).

Would a 3/4" flex conduit allow a bundle of 2 RG6QS and 2 cat5e to be pulled through? I checked it at HD and it physically fits in there...but hard to say how well it woudl 'glide' through the conduit.

THought i'd give this forum a shot before i go by 9' of tube and 20' of RG6 and Cat5e to try how well it works...

Separately I'm having them upsize a lot of light switch location with an extra gang and a similar smurftube configuration to allow me to add the hardwired control for OnQ ALC and possibly some other IR/Intercom/whatever...

 

[upstatemike]

Why smurf tube instead of conduit? Is it just cheaper? Seems like conduit is a lot easier to pull wires through.

 

[johnboy70_99]

Would a 3/4" flex conduit allow a bundle of 2 RG6QS and 2 cat5e to be pulled through? I checked it at HD and it physically fits in there...but hard to say how well it woudl 'glide' through the conduit.

I would say 3/4" is too small - even if you do end up just pulling the cat5 and rg6 in there it will be tight, and you will not be able to pull anything else through there.

1" minimum, preferably bigger if it will fit. The cost of the conduit is nothing compared with the cost/effort of having to fish wires in the future.

 

[nightwalker]

Smurf tube is a dog to pull wire through, you start out thinking it's more than I need but find out later only about half of what you want/need is able to fit and still be able to pull it. Standard 1 or 1 1/2 inch thin wall conduit will serve you better, the bigger the better at this point.

Doing it the way you have planned will probably take care of any wiring in standard hight outlet boxes for devices and audio/visual equipment however, this does not account for any in ceiling speakers you may plan on. Also you need to think about security wiring, windows, doors, motion detectors, smoke detectors, etc. Any camera's you want also need to be pre-wired.

There ends up being so many things to wire that don't necessarily go to the outlet behind the TV or equipment rack. Pencil, paper, your house plan and a good thought to what you are planning, present and future, will be your friend. <_<

 

[felixrosbergen]

Thanks for the replies guys...I'll investigate if i can get a bigger conduit. For most place i cant even really imagine needinng 2 RG6QS and 2 Cay5e though...

Security wiring will all be in-wall since most of the sensors and such are recessed anyway.

Ceiling speakers have been taken into account..

The configuration i decribed was really only for TV / Computer locations...

Not sure if i can get the electrican to put in regular conduit at a reasonable price... for the LV box plus 3/4" smuf tube he quoed $65 per location which i though we a good price.. I am mainly concerned with the ground floor...2nd floor i will have some put in the exterior walls...interior walls are easy to access by myself later...

 

[CORT]

I really like the ideas you are proposing about installing conduit. This makes your installation near "future proof." Having said this, everyone is correct that 3/4" LV conduit is probably too small for the 2 RG6's and 2 Cat5's. While the cables actually fit, there are quidelines regarding conduit fill. With 4 cables, you would not want to have more than a 40% fill by cross sectional surface area. My rough calculations suggest that 3/4" conduit is just a bit small for the 4 cables. 1" diameter conduit would be better for your application. You may want to leave pullstrings in the longer conduits if you even think you might add wires. Also consider using pulling lubricant on the wires that go through longer runs.

Check Belden's web page conduit calculator for kicks: https://edeskv2.belden.com/conduitcalculator/ and http://www.belden.com/08Tools/08_ConduitCapacityChart.cfm

Good luck.

 

[felixrosbergen]

Hi Cort,

Thanks for the links...this seems mostly related to NEC which i thought did not apply to LV anyway....

I'll check with the electrician to see if we can do 1" or so conduit.

My plan is that if i start to use a conduit i will likely run 2 RG6QS and 2 Cat5 all at the same time. It can totally see that putting 1 RG6QS and 1 cat5e and then trying to squeeze somethng else through later will not work...worst cause though you pull back what's already in and send it back through altogether....

For the main basement to attic runs i think 2" diameter is the max they can run through the wall cavities...i'm getting 3 of them put in...something they will allow me to put some wires in and add later....at least they are complete vertical runs and PVC so that shoudl make things easier..

I may just go to HomeDepot and by the stuff and run a test myself....

The only problem with the whole plan is that when i take ownership of the house and move it there is essentially no CATV and phone cables in place...so i guess the first night/day I'll be pulling a cable to the TV to keep the wife happy... <_<

I really like the ideas you are proposing about installing conduit. This makes your installation near "future proof." Having said this, everyone is correct that 3/4" LV conduit is probably too small for the 2 RG6's and 2 Cat5's. While the cables actually fit, there are quidelines regarding conduit fill. With 4 cables, you would not want to have more than a 40% fill by cross sectional surface area. My rough calculations suggest that 3/4" conduit is just a bit small for the 4 cables. 1" diameter conduit would be better for your application. You may want to leave pullstrings in the longer conduits if you even think you might add wires. Also consider using pulling lubricant on the wires that go through longer runs.

Check Belden's web page conduit calculator for kicks: https://edeskv2.belden.com/conduitcalculator/ and http://www.belden.com/08Tools/08_ConduitCapacityChart.cfm

Good luck.

 

[chrkov]

You might want to talk to your electrician and see if he has a problem with you running your cables before the drywall goes up. I asked my electrician and he was fine with it. He just told me the guidlines for making sure the inspector didnt have a problem with it. So I was able to run all my stuctured cable before drywall went up. Was so much easier.

Can hurt to ask.

 

[felixrosbergen]

You might want to talk to your electrician and see if he has a problem with you running your cables before the drywall goes up. I asked my electrician and he was fine with it. He just told me the guidlines for making sure the inspector didnt have a problem with it. So I was able to run all my stuctured cable before drywall went up. Was so much easier.

Can hurt to ask.

Since the house is being built by a developer by very much customized to our wishes we cannot do anything ourselves. There is insurance/liability issues that make this too difficult. I understand this too....so had to come up with an alternate and flexible way to adress it.

I ran the smurftube experiment last night and was able to get 2 RG6QS and 3 Cat5e through a 10' section with 2 90 degree bends at 1' radius. I didn't even have to use the pullstring, wall able to push it from the other end. I am quite happy and will be sticking with the 3/4", with some wire lube and a pullstring i' m sure this won't be as bad as some may have thought based on comments in the thread above.

 

[RHT]

Hi,

You want to future-proof your home, but keep in mind you also have to now-proof your home so I would run the cables required for today now and also put in a small smurf tube for future.

This way you are covered both ways and the cost is minimal as the larger flex tubing can be quite pricey!!

Regards,

RHT

Gents,

My plan is to not have any Cat5e or RG6 put into the new house by the builder, instead i have him put in several 2" PVC conduits from basement to attic and at all locations where i want any type of media outlet (Cat5e, RG6, IR, Serial, whatever) i will have a LV mudring with a flexible conduit (e.g. smurf tube) runnign up to the attic or down to the basement.

The smurftube would have a max lenght of abotu 9' for 2nd floor to attic runs and probabaly only 5' or so from ground floor to basement.

Since they are only running up/down to attic/basement i expect the runs to be relatively straight with few turns. If the LV udring is nailed to a stud then the smurftube and go straight up the stud with some clamps.

I am trying to figure out the right size conduit. Looking at HomeDepot it seems that 3/4" is pretty common and has connectors and stuff to the LV bracket (Organge Carlon stuff).

Ofcourse not all places may get 2RG6QS and 2 Cat5e, but generally if that can fit i think i can fit most of my needs. I dont' plan to run component cabling or anythink like that. At the main TV location i've asked for a 2" conduit to basement for flexibility (possilby HDMI from media PC/server downstrairs or may even put surroudn amp in the basement).

Would a 3/4" flex conduit allow a bundle of 2 RG6QS and 2 cat5e to be pulled through? I checked it at HD and it physically fits in there...but hard to say how well it woudl 'glide' through the conduit.

THought i'd give this forum a shot before i go by 9' of tube and 20' of RG6 and Cat5e to try how well it works...

Separately I'm having them upsize a lot of light switch location with an extra gang and a similar smurftube configuration to allow me to add the hardwired control for OnQ ALC and possibly some other IR/Intercom/whatever...

 

[felixrosbergen]

After testing the setup and already having a good price for getting the 3/4" smurftube installed i am quite happy with the setup...for now...

I have seen in the neighbours house how the electrician puts in the Coax and Cat5e and don't want him doing that to my cables. I prefer to run them through the tubes myself later so i can buy only the quanity that i need of a quality cable and run it with care taking bend radii into consideration.

We'll see how well it all works on move-in day..haha..

 

[Brightan]

I installed a full 4" PVC plumbing pipe from my HA room to the attic and it has worked out great! I have run many more cables down there that I never expected to need (of course!). The other nice thing is that either it is smoking hot up there or freezing cold (where I live), and you'll want to minimize the time spend trying to get your cables through a too-small conduit!
Oh ya, one other thing to remember is that you may want to run pre-made cables with ends on and will need extra room for them. I ran a full VGA cable with ends intact as well as HDMI, component, RS232, RJ45...

 

[Photon]

I had our electrician install a box with 3/4 smurf to the basement on one or two exterior walls of each room. I needed the full box for vapor barrier and to keep insulation out of the way. I specified 3/4 because fittings are available, but he didn't use fittings; just drilled a big hole in the box and caulked around the smurf. No problem getting two RG6QS + two Cat5e up the tube, but more of a problem with bend radius inside the box. I ended up placing the coax jacks at the top of the box and the network jacks below, backward from my desired configuration. I pulled all the cable out of the basement, terminated and installed jacks on the faceplate, then carefully pushed the bundle back down while fastening the faceplate to the box. I have a generous "service loop" in the basement under each box. Much easier to work on drops on the interior walls where I used the post-construction version of a mud ring or in the case of the Elk panels, a cut-down box. But this is Wisconsin, and insulation and vapor control are not insignificant.

 

[pablito]

Yesterday, I found myself at the house thinking about my install and am seriously contemplating putting in at least one Carlon Riser-Gard conduit to each of the bedrooms, the office, the family room and living room. Although nearly all exterior walls end up in the attic, my contractor originally discouraged me from running many conduits up there for fear of causing problems with the insulation, drafts, etc. He also didn't think much of my going up there as once the foot of insulation is blown in, it isn't desirable to walk on it more than absolutely needed. I'm in eastern Canada so like Photon, vapour barriers and insulation are very significant.

Nevertheless, I'm still running a couple of 2" conduits straight up from the utility room for future use and find myself thinking of possible alternatives to route some smurf tubing while avoiding the attic.

Mav: As Home Depot only caries the 3/4" riser-gard and I understand this is what you used, I just wanted to double check how things had gone for installation. In order to avoid exterior walls, at least one 90 degree bend will be needed in most cases and possibly 2 in some others. Heck, with the house having a fully finished basement, I probably can't avoid it in some cases. I was wondering about your (and other peoples) experiences with bends. It should be quite possible maintaining a 1' radius.

Photon: What is this "box" you ran the conduit into that acts as a vapour barrier? Any chance you could provide a link? Given what you're describing, maybe I am worrying about the this too much. Have you been through a winter since the build/install? How did the box and tubing work out in keeping out the cold?

 

[felixrosbergen]

Gents,

Just as a follow up.

My wife pre-wire is complete and we've made extensive use of smurftube. Time wil tell if it was a wise decision.

I also came to the conclusion that 3/4" for drops to indivdual rooms is the right size for me. For my house the exterior walls are 2x6 with plywood on outside and 'house wrap' on the outside of the plywood.

We used the carlon 'new construction' LV brackets with fittings to attach the 3/4 smurftube.

I ran tests before all this went in and concluded that for a 10' long section with 2 sharp 90 degree bends i could easilly fit 3 cat5e's plus 2 RG6QS in.

My conduits run down to basement or up to the attic only. For those that don't have the luxury of unfinishd basements or attics (preferable without blowin insulation ) I would be cautious about running the tub say all the way from second floor to wiring closet. My feeling are that things get ugly fast once you add another bend or 2 bends that go back onto each other (forming a 180).

3/4" is indeed definetely too small to run VGA, DB9, DVI, HDMI ends through. For the main TV/theather location i have a 2 gang LV bracket with a 2" PVC pipe to the basement. 2" should be enough to get most anything through. If not there's always balumns which would use Cat5/6 which you can field terminate and you can get a LOT of cat5/6 through a 2" conduit. For component video distribution (5x RG59) a 3/4" conduit would most likely not work.

So far i'm a big fan of the conduit arragenement for the following reasons:
- flexibility (no need to overthink what you want to run where, almost anything fits through the tube except 5 x RG59 for component video)
- future proofing (fiber to the desk at some point in the future?
- Less cable cost (need to ofcourse pay for the conduits, but not for 2xRG6QS and 2 x xCat5 to all locattions all the way from the wiring room)
- Ability to 'repull'. If i get signal issues or something doesnt work i can always run a new cable through the conduit as part of the trouble shooting process
- When having a house built and you cannot do the wiring yourself this shoudl end up cheaper than having a contractor pull all the wires for you (and less worries about bend raduis, sheetrockers nicking the wires, etc)
- Easy to postpone cable buying and possible spend extra on higher quality cables for certain runs you think are critical.

Downsides:
- You put for the conduit first and then still have to pay for the cable.