Do you by any chance have any aluminum wiring in your house?
I use UPB with no problems at all. 90% of my device are Simply Automated devices.
This is from the SA Website:
"Highly Reliable - The UPB method of communication is 100 ~ 1000 times more reliable than current X-10 technology and 10 ~100 times more reliable than CEBUS or LONWORKS powerline technologies. Reliability is defined as the percentage of transmitter/receiver pairs that correctly operate upon initial installation. The UPB test units are randomly installed in the environment typical of the target market. This market is defined as the single-family residential market in the US . This environment is defined to be the existing base of homes, without any modifications. This means that there should be no â€œfixingâ€ the electrical system of the residence by adding couplers, repeaters or filtering. The first version of UPB will be over 99.9% reliable (>100 times X-10). Current X-10 is around 70%~80%. "
It implies that there will be no need for filters etc and that UPB will be over 99.9% reliable. So if someone who is new to HA reads that they would feel comfortable that they product will work when first installed.
Personally I think they should revise their claim to homes where the noise level is below a certain level and that it should be checked before installing.
Hi Steve-You didn't strike any nerves, at least with me, you are entitled to your disappointment. I was disappointed too. I think where we disagree is in the fact that you want to blame the manufacturer for something that is outside of their control. There are several examples the guys stated here. The fact is the switches ARE reliable, its the TRANSMISSION MEDIA that is faulty. Name one piece of equipment that depends on a transmission media and will work properly even if the transmission media has issues? You can't, its the nature of the beast. UPB is a powerline control technology, it depends on the quality of the powerline to communicate properly. If there are issues with that powerline then the signaling can and will be affected. You have SEVERE noise on your powerline which is causing signal degradation. That's nobody's fault, just the nature of the beast. You can, and people do, have the same issues with wireless. It depends on air as the transmission media. If I put high quality wireless switches in and then I take a 'noise' generator to fill the air with all kinds of garbage on the same wireless frequency, you wireless switches won't communicate either. Does the switch still operate the light - yup, its reliable. It's just the path between switches that isn't.
And I don't mean to be argumentative at all but as AnthonyZ said, if you did the research beforehand, especially here, you would see that there is only one truly reliable system and that is hardwire. That's because only you control that transmission media. And even hardwire can have issues - what if a rat eats thru your wire or you nail it and short it, guess what - connectivity between devices is lost. So you really have to understand the difference between the hardware and the transmission/connection path.
I won't disagree that manufacturers can make things clearer, etc and some do marketing that maybe doesn't spell everything out, but that's where sites like this come in. There are hundreds before you that have done this and this is well documented. So, no struck nerves, arguments or issues, the rest of us just won't blame the mfg for something that isn't their fault, we have plenty of other stuff to blame on them!
Good idea, I'll check it. They did break the underground feed line into the house during the excavation process, and patched it with a splice ball. Maybe there is some leakage.You know, I had an issue at my house about 6 months ago. Randomly my power would go out to half of my house, but then come back on immidiately. Also my power would flicker, but not completely go out. This went on for about 6 months. I tried reading voltages at both legs of the power into my box, and was always getting 120 per leg. Well one night I came home, and again the power was out in half of my house, but this time it stayed out. I immidiately went to the box and sure enough, I was only getting power to one leg of my panel. I called the utility company, and they came out and jumped the meter, so I had full power to the entire house again. Anyway, the next morning the power company came back and repaired a section of my main line that goes into my house. The guy was telling me that sometimes during installation, they may nick the insulation, and not realize it. The power company guys said most likely it was Verizon who had nicked the line when installing FIOS, as the FIOS line ran directly across the point where they had to fix it. What Im getting at is, possibly the line in the ground is bad, or nicked, or the connections at the meter, panel, or transformer are poor. Just like in car audio, a bad ground could also cause alot of noise in the system. When I was a mechanic, I strictly worked on electrical systems, and the #1 problem was always poor connection to ground. I would have the electrician who installed it, and the power company look at the installation.
Ahhh, saving the best for last this morning!DeadCrabs,
By now, someone from the community would have welcomed you, a newcomer, to this large and established community. Perhaps your opening salvo of bluster, combined with naivete, has made us raise our guard and forget our manners. Welcome to Cocoontech!
Now down to brass tacks. Read extensively, use Cocoontech's search, and ask questions before rendering conclusions based on limited experience. Your first date with an HA technology was lousy. We've all been there. Some products deserve to be scorned and others do not. Knowing how to tell them apart comes with experience.
If you feel you weren't given sufficient warning that UPB may not work in all cases, I highly recommend that you save yourself a lot of grief and abandon HA immediately. I've had HA as a hobby for over two years and I've never considered it to be in the realm of 'consumer electronics'.
4. If someone decides to design and provide a new product that uses the existing powerlines as their transmission media, the onus is on them to ensure that their product works on the platform they chose to piggyback on.
Well, I can tell you that UPB is used by literally thousands of professional installers that make their living off of it. Why? Because it is a quality product that typically is very reliable. It is definitely not just a hobbyist product.Finally, I firmly believe that if the manufacturers of this technology ever want to move from the realm of the hobbyists to mainstream
I agree, so go and figure out where the noise is coming from. And if you can't, hire a professional in this area (don't miread that as you are not a professional - I'm sure you are in your field of expertise). And if they can't then try another technology like wireless, but be cognizant of the fact IT CAN BREAK TOO! You are actually lucky in that you have this problem now before you install 8000 sq ft of it. Imagine how you feel if you installed 150 devices that worked perfectly THEN your noise started.So this is not about "fixing the blame", it's about "fixing the problem".
Well, you are not the first to be sorely disappointed by marketing materials. And HA and electronics are not the only realms. I bet if we did a poll here, > 90% of respondents would say their actual performance does measure up to their expected performance. The only 'fight' you have here is to urge manufacturers to put some sort of disclaimer about noise. But the only way you are going to know if it works is to try it. Any you do that as a hobbyist by reading the wealth of information here, then work with a 99.9% reliable (sorry) vendor like AO or others around here. You get a starter kit and see what happens, if there are issues you either buckle down and find them or return the stuff and try something else.In my opinion, one of the root causes of this problem is that expecations for the reliability of UPB have been set too high in the manufacturers' marketing materials (I think Digger's post illustrates this nicely). Quality perception is all about how actual performance measures up against the expected performance. Although fixing this expectation issue will not help me with my problem now, hopefully it will prevent other from stepping into the same pile I did, and more importantly improve the quality perception of this technology.
It was a genuine welcome. It was also a genuine recommendation to perform more research. Other newbies have received similar advice from the community.Ahhh, saving the best for last this morning!
Well thanks for thoughts 123, but if this condescending and sanctimonious reply is your idea of a welcome, then youâ€™ll have to forgive me if I respond in kind. I notice Rupp was reprimanded for being rude and unhelpful, but I guess if you do it with pompous language itâ€™s OK?
Anyway, I explained my points in this morningâ€™s earlier post. If you have something of value to add to the debate, please do so, but please lose the patronizing tone.
In my original troubleshooting session, I completely shutdown all power to the generator, (including the trickle charger and current sensing circuits), and then actually turned it on and let it run. Neither case had any significant change to the noise level. Eventually, I had every circuit in the entire house off except the single outlet to which the PIM was in, and I actually had a slightly higher noise level than when all circuits were switched in. I'm assuming this means the noise source is external to the main panel, but I wouldn't stake my life on it. I don't understand at all why the noise level would increase as circuits are switched out.Did you try switching over to the generator to see if the noise problem changes? Have them conduct a "generator test" then plug the PIM in. At least you'll be able to potentially isolate the source. If it is coming from the line then you may have a potentially dangerous installation fault.
This will be my last reply in this thread because I don't think I can help or add any value. If after this you are still locked into your opinion, then it is pointless to keep debating this, regardless of how friendly we keep it...