Sorely Disappointed in UPB

[Steve]

I've been told that the rectification of the issue is most likely not a GenI/GenII thing, but more likely due to manufacturing and programming differences between the brands.

There are certainly many anomalies and installation specific issues but I think its been pretty well demonstrated by many people that Gen II will perform better in noisy environment. BUT, to get that performance, you need Gen II all the way through, especially on the PIM. You can not just insert a Gen II device and expect the network to be better (not saying this is what you have, just saying in general). Gen I and Gen II should interoperate fine, but if starting from scratch just make sure all the stuff is Gen II.

I also just wanted to point out for the OP that if you do go wireless, there are also design considerations. To have a reliable mesh network, you need a good mesh. That means several switches need to see each other to build multiple paths. In a very large house such as your this can be problematic with just a handful of switches. Figure 30, maybe 40 feet as a max distance between switches. The point is, don't expect to have a handful of switches scattered around 8000 feet and have it work, and if it does, be super reliable. You need a good concentration of devices in that size to have great reliability.

 

[nov0798]

Again, is your new home being run off of generator or land power at the moment? Possibly the generator since it doesnt produce really clean power, is introducing noise into the lines.

 

[chambro]

It is good old First Energy grid power, the generator is only backup. As I said earlier, while testing for noise I removed the generator from the circuit to ensure none of its components were adding noise, regardless of whether it was operating or not.

The main feed from the transformer is underground; could a crappy splice in the buried cable create this type of noise? I know they just slap those splice balls on and throw the whole thing back in the ditch after a break.

 

[signal15]

It is good old First Energy grid power, the generator is only backup. As I said earlier, while testing for noise I removed the generator from the circuit to ensure none of its components were adding noise, regardless of whether it was operating or not.

The main feed from the transformer is underground; could a crappy splice in the buried cable create this type of noise? I know they just slap those splice balls on and throw the whole thing back in the ditch after a break.

You said both houses had high noise. Are they on the same transformer?

 

[chambro]

To Steve, 123, and AnthonyZ:

Maybe I just have a higher quality standards when it comes to my consumer electronics. A product that fails to work reliably for 10% (or even a couple %) of the customers is never going to grow beyond a very small niche for the very few who don't mind constant re-engineering and poor quality. The fact that these automation technologies, although potentially very cool and useful, are not anywhere near mainstream yet makes my case. The manufacturers are not marketing UPB as a technology that will only work in within certain noise parameters; they market it as X10 without the reliabilty problems. Heck, you can't even find the filters everyone seems to need on the manufacturers web sites; yet they all make them, but don't advertise them. Why is that? Why do you have to purchase their products before you know if it will work for you? Why is there not a big disclaimer on their literature and web sites stating that there is a small, but significant chance that this technology will not work in your particular residense? Why don't they tell you to characterize and deal with potential noise issues before you make a large purchase? Why don't they have a nice troubleshooting guide telling you about all the known sources of potential noise and how to track them down and eliminate them?

I know I'm not alone here, and I'm pretty sure my situation is not even a "small minority". Actually, those apologists who would rather blame the customer for poor quality and reliability are actually the small minority of all the potential market. If the manufacturers are lulled into complacancy by listening to them, they will never have the opportunity to create a truly good prodcut and that this real majority will buy.

Having said all that, there is nothing wrong with this technology staying niche to the small group of hobbyists and tinkerers that have the desire, time and capabilities to do it. All I'm saying is that the manufacturers should then market it this way and not set expectations that they cannot fufill.

Anyway, I didn't think I would strike such a nerve by saying I was disappointed. If you feel my expectations are too hight, then I guess we will just have to agree to disagree and move on; no harm, no foul.

 

[chambro]

It is good old First Energy grid power, the generator is only backup. As I said earlier, while testing for noise I removed the generator from the circuit to ensure none of its components were adding noise, regardless of whether it was operating or not.

The main feed from the transformer is underground; could a crappy splice in the buried cable create this type of noise? I know they just slap those splice balls on and throw the whole thing back in the ditch after a break.

You said both houses had high noise. Are they on the same transformer?

They are right next door to each other, so I'm assuming they are both on the same transformer. Is there a way to tell?

 

[Steve]

You didn't strike any nerves, at least with me, you are entitled to your disappointment. I was disappointed too. I think where we disagree is in the fact that you want to blame the manufacturer for something that is outside of their control. There are several examples the guys stated here. The fact is the switches ARE reliable, its the TRANSMISSION MEDIA that is faulty. Name one piece of equipment that depends on a transmission media and will work properly even if the transmission media has issues? You can't, its the nature of the beast. UPB is a powerline control technology, it depends on the quality of the powerline to communicate properly. If there are issues with that powerline then the signaling can and will be affected. You have SEVERE noise on your powerline which is causing signal degradation. That's nobody's fault, just the nature of the beast. You can, and people do, have the same issues with wireless. It depends on air as the transmission media. If I put high quality wireless switches in and then I take a 'noise' generator to fill the air with all kinds of garbage on the same wireless frequency, you wireless switches won't communicate either. Does the switch still operate the light - yup, its reliable. It's just the path between switches that isn't.

And I don't mean to be argumentative at all but as AnthonyZ said, if you did the research beforehand, especially here, you would see that there is only one truly reliable system and that is hardwire. That's because only you control that transmission media. And even hardwire can have issues - what if a rat eats thru your wire or you nail it and short it, guess what - connectivity between devices is lost. So you really have to understand the difference between the hardware and the transmission/connection path.

I won't disagree that manufacturers can make things clearer, etc and some do marketing that maybe doesn't spell everything out, but that's where sites like this come in. There are hundreds before you that have done this and this is well documented. So, no struck nerves, arguments or issues, the rest of us just won't blame the mfg for something that isn't their fault, we have plenty of other stuff to blame on them!

 

[Rupp]

DeadCrabs,
Your striking a nerve of some of the UPB die hards so just ignore the comments and stay above it. The bottom line is you should give Z-Wave a test as it doesn't use powerlines and may work better for you.

 

[Steve]

It is good old First Energy grid power, the generator is only backup. As I said earlier, while testing for noise I removed the generator from the circuit to ensure none of its components were adding noise, regardless of whether it was operating or not.

The main feed from the transformer is underground; could a crappy splice in the buried cable create this type of noise? I know they just slap those splice balls on and throw the whole thing back in the ditch after a break.

You said both houses had high noise. Are they on the same transformer?

They are right next door to each other, so I'm assuming they are both on the same transformer. Is there a way to tell?

Not for sure by yourself. You need to ask you electricity provider - First Energy. The have the blueprints or documentation that shows the transformers, splice boxes, etc and what homes are fed from them. That's why I recommended earlier you check this, and try a house on a different transformer to see what happens.

 

[Steve]

DeadCrabs,
Your striking a nerve of some of the UPB die hards so just ignore the comments and stay above it. The bottom line is you should give Z-Wave a test as it doesn't use powerlines and may work better for you.

I'm sorry Rupp, that has to be one of the most unhelpful and ridiculous posts you've ever made. I know you mean well, but c'mon, be real. That's like me saying to a Homeseer user having trouble, ah, don't listen to Rupp, he's biased, try CQC because it is wriiten in C and not VB. And I spend quite a bit of time typing these posts with accurate info. I *do* have issues with UPB but I don't blame it on the manufacturers and I *do* also use Jetstream. So please don't tell someone to 'stay above me' and to ignore my comments, that's just rude and insulting.

 

[123]

DeadCrabs,

By now, someone from the community would have welcomed you, a newcomer, to this large and established community. Perhaps your opening salvo of bluster, combined with naivete, has made us raise our guard and forget our manners. Welcome to Cocoontech!

Now down to brass tacks. Read extensively, use Cocoontech's search, and ask questions before rendering conclusions based on limited experience. Your first date with an HA technology was lousy. We've all been there. Some products deserve to be scorned and others do not. Knowing how to tell them apart comes with experience.

If you feel you weren't given sufficient warning that UPB may not work in all cases, I highly recommend that you save yourself a lot of grief and abandon HA immediately. I've had HA as a hobby for over two years and I've never considered it to be in the realm of 'consumer electronics'.

 

[electron]

DeadCrabs,
Your striking a nerve of some of the UPB die hards so just ignore the comments and stay above it. The bottom line is you should give Z-Wave a test as it doesn't use powerlines and may work better for you.

That's uncalled for, and IMO extremely rude and not helpful. There is some really solid/useful advice in the previous posts, so telling someone to ignore that would be selfish, especially since he already invested money.

 

[Digger]

I use UPB with no problems at all. 90% of my device are Simply Automated devices.

This is from the SA Website:

"Highly Reliable - The UPB method of communication is 100 ~ 1000 times more reliable than current X-10 technology and 10 ~100 times more reliable than CEBUS or LONWORKS powerline technologies. Reliability is defined as the percentage of transmitter/receiver pairs that correctly operate upon initial installation. The UPB test units are randomly installed in the environment typical of the target market. This market is defined as the single-family residential market in the US . This environment is defined to be the existing base of homes, without any modifications. This means that there should be no “fixing†the electrical system of the residence by adding couplers, repeaters or filtering. The first version of UPB will be over 99.9% reliable (>100 times X-10). Current X-10 is around 70%~80%. "

It implies that there will be no need for filters etc and that UPB will be over 99.9% reliable. So if someone who is new to HA reads that they would feel comfortable that they product will work when first installed.

Personally I think they should revise their claim to homes where the noise level is below a certain level and that it should be checked before installing.

 

[Aesculus]

UPB won't span transformers right? So the OP could run the tester in his old house to see if he can see a switch in his new house. If he can then he is on the same transformer. If he's close (within 200 feet or so) I would suspect he could see the device from one house to the other if he is on the same transformer.

BTW you can still call First Energy and discuss your problem with them. Some utility company's are truely interested in power quality as well as just staying within regulatory voltage levels. You could be suprised and get an engineer to talk to you about your problem. Its just a phone call.

 

[nov0798]

You know, I had an issue at my house about 6 months ago. Randomly my power would go out to half of my house, but then come back on immidiately. Also my power would flicker, but not completely go out. This went on for about 6 months. I tried reading voltages at both legs of the power into my box, and was always getting 120 per leg. Well one night I came home, and again the power was out in half of my house, but this time it stayed out. I immidiately went to the box and sure enough, I was only getting power to one leg of my panel. I called the utility company, and they came out and jumped the meter, so I had full power to the entire house again. Anyway, the next morning the power company came back and repaired a section of my main line that goes into my house. The guy was telling me that sometimes during installation, they may nick the insulation, and not realize it. The power company guys said most likely it was Verizon who had nicked the line when installing FIOS, as the FIOS line ran directly across the point where they had to fix it. What Im getting at is, possibly the line in the ground is bad, or nicked, or the connections at the meter, panel, or transformer are poor. Just like in car audio, a bad ground could also cause alot of noise in the system. When I was a mechanic, I strictly worked on electrical systems, and the #1 problem was always poor connection to ground. I would have the electrician who installed it, and the power company look at the installation.