Through-The-Wall Air Conditioner That Can Use An External Thermostat

[apostolakisl]

Yeah, OK.  The word "nice" is pretty subjective.
 
Basically, any type of hotel that has significant interior space is not going to have out the wall compressors.  And most hotels that I would call "nice" have interior facilities. . . conference rooms, banquet facilities, bars, restaurants, etc.

 

[Del91574]

Lou,
 
Freon is Dupont's trade name for a group of their HFC's. I think you're looking for the proper term of refrigerant, and then you need to know what "flavor" it actually is. Kleenex is a poor analogy, it's like stating that motor oil is the same as gear lube, since they're both fluorocarbon based. Whatever.
 
I don't see why you find it necessary to argue every time that I provide a viewpoint. I'm not an armchair quarterback. My parent company is involved in the security/fire and building efficency industry. We do everything from design all the way through buildout and maintenance, not to mention manufacture our own equipment and equipment installed as OEM for many other manufacturers.
 
I work on the S+F/controls side of the business as my focus. I don't feel it necessary to get into credentials, but if you'd like to provide some of your background and experience, and the projects and technologies you're involved with or work with, I'd be all ears.
 
My sites in my area and specifically my customers are very high profile and I work with and on the systems you "viewed" daily as an "honest" system. There's far more involved in controls than  you believe you know and what I believe you saw. There's end user controls, either digital or analog, as well as simple temperature probe stations. I threw slider as an analogy, because analog or digital, it's still viewed as a linear item in my world. The archaic "slider" and that "slick digital" unit communicate and talk on the same bus exactly the same, the only difference is the line item cost per unit. Hopefully you're involved in the decision making somewhere with what units are installed, as the LCD's add a very nice price increase on a functionally equivalent item.

We're deeply involved in the healthcare and biopharma world that you touted as the cat's meow...it's our bread and butter, as well as other mission critical installations. Our tolerances are tighter than you mentioned, but that's a different discussion.
 
If you'd like to consider high profile systems integration and BAS/S&F, I'll provide a few projects for you to consider:
Burj Khalifa, Empire state building, Shanghai World Financial Center. BBC's new world headquarters, Emirate Towers.
 
In your state specifically..let me know if you'd like a tour, I can arrange one for you so you can see how we're "dishonest" at these sites:
Jack Evans Police Headquarters, Dallas, Texas, Technology Manufacturer, Round Rock, Texas (they prefer no publicity, but the building is 4.5 mil SF),Marine Military Academy Harlingen, Texas,Spring Branch Independent School District Houston, Texas, City of Tyler Tyler, Texas, City of Galveston Galveston, Texas,Sealed Air Corporation Iowa Park, Texas, JCPenney
Plano, Texas (and all 1000 stores)



 

 

[apostolakisl]

Lou,
 
Freon is Dupont's trade name for a group of their HFC's. I think you're looking for the proper term of refrigerant, and then you need to know what "flavor" it actually is. Kleenex is a poor analogy, it's like stating that motor oil is the same as gear lube, since they're both fluorocarbon based. Whatever.
 
I don't see why you find it necessary to argue every time that I provide a viewpoint. I'm not an armchair quarterback. My parent company is involved in the security/fire and building efficency industry. We do everything from design all the way through buildout and maintenance, not to mention manufacture our own equipment and equipment installed as OEM for many other manufacturers.
 
I work on the S+F/controls side of the business as my focus. I don't feel it necessary to get into credentials, but if you'd like to provide some of your background and experience, and the projects and technologies you're involved with or work with, I'd be all ears.
 
My sites in my area and specifically my customers are very high profile and I work with and on the systems you "viewed" daily as an "honest" system. There's far more involved in controls than  you believe you know and what I believe you saw. There's end user controls, either digital or analog, as well as simple temperature probe stations. I threw slider as an analogy, because analog or digital, it's still viewed as a linear item in my world. The archaic "slider" and that "slick digital" unit communicate and talk on the same bus exactly the same, the only difference is the line item cost per unit. Hopefully you're involved in the decision making somewhere with what units are installed, as the LCD's add a very nice price increase on a functionally equivalent item.

We're deeply involved in the healthcare and biopharma world that you touted as the cat's meow...it's our bread and butter, as well as other mission critical installations. Our tolerances are tighter than you mentioned, but that's a different discussion.
 
If you'd like to consider high profile systems integration and BAS/S&F, I'll provide a few projects for you to consider:
Burj Khalifa, Empire state building, Shanghai World Financial Center. BBC's new world headquarters, Emirate Towers.
 
In your state specifically..let me know if you'd like a tour, I can arrange one for you so you can see how we're "dishonest" at these sites:
Jack Evans Police Headquarters, Dallas, Texas, Technology Manufacturer, Round Rock, Texas (they prefer no publicity, but the building is 4.5 mil SF),Marine Military Academy Harlingen, Texas,Spring Branch Independent School District Houston, Texas, City of Tyler Tyler, Texas, City of Galveston Galveston, Texas,Sealed Air Corporation Iowa Park, Texas, JCPenney
Plano, Texas (and all 1000 stores)



 

 
 
Dell,
 
You never cease to amaze me.  
 
You don't know anything about VFR systems.  
I guarantee you have never touched one or seen one.  Your company does not install them and you probably have never met someone who does.  I have seen, touched, been in buildings with them, seen case studies on many buildings with them, met with people who install them, and had buildings quoted for installation on them.
 
Please, do more than read the front page of the brochure before being the expert.
 
And the freon/kleenex analogy is an excellent one.  Using the word "refrigerant" could compromise any substance that has a gas/liquid interface.  Using the word "freon" within the context I did is perfectly understood by everyone, including you, but you just want to be a PITA.

 

[tmbrown97]

It's interesting - the number of things a single individual working at a large company as referenced would have such intimate working knowledge of - so many sub-systems - Crestron/AMX control, different Lighting systems, Security, HVAC, Access Control, Building Automation, Fire Safety, etc (and each of those having huge subsets depending on client type) - with projects ranging from McMansions to some of the biggest commercial buildings/sites in the world... It's been my experience that, especially in larger companies, those are segregated functions and departments and the likelihood of one person having a substantial role in all of those functions across such a wide range of projects is just - well - unlikely.
 
DEL - you referenced a lot of sites, so please do share with us - what exactly was your personal involvement on the Shanghai World Financial Center, Emirate Towers, JCPenny in Plano, and some of the others?

 

[etc6849]

Yeah, I know.  But in fairness, I did mention brands of the in wall units in my first post.  Maybe you should have been psychic I guess 
 
I never stay at the places you are thinking about (unless I'm close to one and my employer pays for it).  Even when I'm using my Marriott or Hilton rewards points, I'm too cheap to stay at the top tier places as they cost too many points.  Usually the rural places I'm stuck traveling too do not have such facilities...
 

Yeah, OK.  The word "nice" is pretty subjective.
 
Basically, any type of hotel that has significant interior space is not going to have out the wall compressors.  And most hotels that I would call "nice" have interior facilities. . . conference rooms, banquet facilities, bars, restaurants, etc.

 

[Del91574]

It's interesting - the number of things a single individual working at a large company as referenced would have such intimate working knowledge of - so many sub-systems - Crestron/AMX control, different Lighting systems, Security, HVAC, Access Control, Building Automation, Fire Safety, etc (and each of those having huge subsets depending on client type) - with projects ranging from McMansions to some of the biggest commercial buildings/sites in the world... It's been my experience that, especially in larger companies, those are segregated functions and departments and the likelihood of one person having a substantial role in all of those functions across such a wide range of projects is just - well - unlikely.
 
DEL - you referenced a lot of sites, so please do share with us - what exactly was your personal involvement on the Shanghai World Financial Center, Emirate Towers, JCPenny in Plano, and some of the others?

Work,
I provided well known examples within our portfolio of the level of integration and size projects we work on, from high end residential all the way up to some of the largest spaces in the world. If I stated a generic site, I doubt that most persons could relate to what is actually integrated and controlled there. The products installed there are the same as those installed elsewhere in the world, I provided examples to refute how "unscruplous" we would be considered in our installations and practices.Our products and programming are installed in the sites I listed. 
 
In my own specific case, I have 5 of the major hospitals within my state, with 2 in the top 5 in the nation as my personal sites. I also have a few multi-billion dollar biopharma sites that I work with also. I don't believe yourself or Lou would be familiar with those sites or possibly their names other than a general association.
 
I've provided details as far as what my end in the business and specializations are. I am commonly interfacing and deal with the BAS as a SOP for my end of the business. Bacnet, Modbus, CAP and a few other protocols, I'm dealing with...pressurizing stairs in the case of a fire alarm, placing spaces negative by exhausting on an alarm, all a daily thing for me. Providing instance ID's and how hardware is sending data on a protocol as well as what it's sending so the other systems can act appropriately, that's my scope. Our BAS for example, is just digital outputs and inputs with configurable software, so I'm commonly connecting items to them as well for alarm purposes or life safety. I may not be doing all the common control work and programming, I am interfacing and programming the other end of the spectrum as it relates to the BAS in these spaces.
 
As far as my integration with other products, I commonly work with C*Cure 9000 enterprise, so specifically, between that and other products including CCTV, I am involved with AMX and Crestron for distributing A/V for those applications, then programming and modifying the GUI's for the end users. It's very common to tie the BAS into these systems for control of lighting for energy management...so from an integrator standpoint, I am intimately involved with many technologies and vendor's products whether or not I'm installing them, as many times I'm interfacing with them. I doubt it's really necessary to start diving into training and certifications for vendors, technologies and products, but if that'll make the doubting Thomas' out there happy, I have no problems.
 
For general reference, I have 2 electrical trade/contractor licenses within my state, I have my NICET's for fire alarm and CCTV, my OSHA cards, and I'm working on my LEED credentials.

 

[apostolakisl]

Yeah, I know.  But in fairness, I did mention brands of the in wall units in my first post.  Maybe you should have been psychic I guess 
 
I never stay at the places you are thinking about (unless I'm close to one and my employer pays for it).  Even when I'm using my Marriott or Hilton rewards points, I'm too cheap to stay at the top tier places as they cost too many points.  Usually the rural places I'm stuck traveling too do not have such facilities...

 
It's all work related for me.  Conferences can only be held at such hotels since, well, they are conferences and conferences need large conference halls only available in big city 4/5 star hotels.  Frankly, I don't get too excited about paying $300/night (or even much more), but staying at a hotel other than the conference hotel is just not worth the trouble.  I always found it funny how the more you spend on a hotel the more they nickle and dime.  
 
But to the point, these places always have accurately controlled hvac systems with a quiet local air handler which will both heat and cool no matter what the season.  Often they have separate zoning in the bathroom and/or radiant floor heat.

 

[tmbrown97]

I also have a few multi-billion dollar biopharma sites that I work with also. I don't believe yourself or Lou would be familiar with those sites or possibly their names other than a general association.

The places I've been and the things I've seen would surprise you - but unless it's somehow relevant to the conversation, I tend to not name drop.

 

[apostolakisl]

Crazy stuff here.  
 
A few photos of actual air handlers with actual chilled water and hot water lines running into them with valves.  I must have photoshopped this since it doesn't exist, but if you care to believe the photos, here it is.
 
I hope to run into Rick, the facilities engineer to get some nice shots of the controller.
 
Below is a photo of some of the chilled water and hot water in/out lines.
 

 
 
 
Below is an air handler with chilled and hot water line in/out with valves.  The valves are the red things up toward the right.  The hot water valve is pretty obvious, the cold water valve is hidden to the right and behind the hot water one.  All kinds of thermostats could run this, from centrally controlled to 100% local control.  Of course if the facility doesn't have chilled and hot water flowing, it won't work.
 

 

[Del91574]

Lou,
 
You flip flopped your technology and terminology. Didn't you say multiple refrigerant lines and not hot/chilled water?
 
 Pedantric, but if you're talking about systems and how they work. In your world and terms you can relate to, it's like you stating I'm going to perform a rhinoplasty but perform a septoplasty instead.They're procedures on the nose, but when it comes down to it, they're very different and describe different procedures, don't you think.

 

[apostolakisl]

Lou,
 
You flip flopped your technology and terminology. Didn't you say multiple refrigerant lines and not hot/chilled water?
 
 Pedantric, but if you're talking about systems and how they work. In your world and terms you can relate to, it's like you stating I'm going to perform a rhinoplasty but perform a septoplasty instead.They're procedures on the nose, but when it comes down to it, they're very different and describe different procedures, don't you think.

 
Del,
 
Seriously.  Go back and read the post.
 
I'll refresh your memory.  I spoke of both types of systems.  And you dully criticized the description of both types of systems.  Remember, you said the water based systems only had sliders that weren't connected to anything and that you can't actually control the temperature.  Well, this is an example of an air handler with valves that are controlled by thermostats that are actually connected and can actually make the temperature change according to the users desires.  
 
Then you went on to say stuff that made it clear that you were completely unaware of VFR.  Then I posted a brochure for one of those systems.  Then you made some ill-informed comments about VFR based on what appeared to be your reading of the title page of the brochure.

 

[Del91574]

Lou,
 
I didn't specify any sort of system and end user interface not being controllable. There's a difference between a BAS with some end user controllability vs. a generic t-stat controlling an electronic valve. I stated and provided an actual article that you started spouting about legal action and how contractors and BAS mislead the public, blah blah blah.....The reason why both digital and slider based "thermostats" that communicate with a host BAS system are to keep the end user from negating the purpose (and investment) of installing a BAS system to begin with. You're confusing your systems and operations and theories.
 
As I've said before, if that makes you feel better, so be it, but I sleep well at night with the systems I deal with, engineering, and how they work and interface. More power to you, you're both an expert in your daily business as well as what you've dabbled in. As I've stated before, let me know which site you would like to visit and I'll arrange for your access and a tour, since you feel that what I know and work with is suspect.

 

[apostolakisl]

Lou,
 
I didn't specify any sort of system and end user interface not being controllable. There's a difference between a BAS with some end user controllability vs. a generic t-stat controlling an electronic valve. I stated and provided an actual article that you started spouting about legal action and how contractors and BAS mislead the public, blah blah blah.....The reason why both digital and slider based "thermostats" that communicate with a host BAS system are to keep the end user from negating the purpose (and investment) of installing a BAS system to begin with. You're confusing your systems and operations and theories.
 
As I've said before, if that makes you feel better, so be it, but I sleep well at night with the systems I deal with, engineering, and how they work and interface. More power to you, you're both an expert in your daily business as well as what you've dabbled in. As I've stated before, let me know which site you would like to visit and I'll arrange for your access and a tour, since you feel that what I know and work with is suspect.

 
 
I'm curious, exactly how many HVAC systems have you installed?  Repaired any?  Have you ever replaced a compressor?  Have you ever installed any refrigeration system?  Ever even opened a system?  Do you have any HVAC licenses?  Do you own a set of gauges?  Vacuum pump?  Acetylene torch?  It may be a hobby for me but at least I have done it, for you I speculate it is just a musing.  But you seem to be implying that this is your profession since you work for a company that also does this.  Or perhaps you are the first professional alarm system installer I have met who is also a professional hvac installer/designer.  I suppose I could go to work for GE in their finance division and claim expertise in jet engine design.  Maybe you have done some of this stuff, but I don't see where that puts your level of authority above mine.  It does appear that your understanding of the evaporation/condensation cycle is lacking, and that really is the most fundamental concept in all of HVAC.
 
So yeah it is a hobby, but one I don't take lightly.  I do the research and have a licensed friend who provides me advice and materials.  I have to this point in my life installed a split system wine room from scratch. I did 100% of the engineering and construction, all of it, from the vapor barrier, insulation, line sets, compressor, evaporator, etc.  I even built the raised panel arch top mahogany door to the room.  My math was perfect, the wine room compressor runs roughly 50% of the time, cycles the temp at 57-59, and holds the humidity at 52% plus.minus 2.  I did a volunteer replacement of an HVAC compressor for a non-profit I work with which is now in its 10th year post repair and going strong.  I even recycled the R-22 just to be nice to mother nature.  I replaced the compressor on a small fridge, and 2 cars back in the day.  I did all the engineering on my office HVAC and subbed out the actual installation to a free-lance guy.  I even fixed the glycol system at my friend's restaurant when it went out one weekend and the beer got warm.  I learn the physics, not just the "how to hook it ups".  But I learn that to.  And I have fun doing it.
 
But back to the hotel room HVAC. .. that is what this is all about.
Check it out.
 
http://cgproducts.johnsoncontrols.com/MET_PDF/1201430.pdf
 
Thermostats for hotel rooms.  Appears to be what I described.  I've been in at least 100 hotels with this style of thermostat with numerous make/model.  Never been in a hotel with a slider, have you?

 

[tmbrown97]

I do know that my office building now (and my previous one) have that stupid slider - it gives you minimal building temperature control with a 2° swing.  Hotels are very different - the nice ones do have total control via the thermostat.

 

[pete_c]

Lou,
 
Question:  Unrelated to OP.
 
I have a very old (~15-20 years old) Gibson dehumidifier in the basement which I use during the summer months here in the midwest.
 
For many years now I have had to "adjust" the control such that the coils wouldn't freeze up.  I did replace the only controller on the device about 3 years ago.  Doesn't the dehumidifier have some checks and balances mechanism such that it prevents the coils from icing up?  (like some sort of shut off?).
 
Is there any way to do diagnostics on the switch or is there some adjustment such that the coils do not freeze up?
 
I have the old controller and it appears to be a "Ranco" with a two HV terminals switch and metal lever on it which can be adjusted. 
 
That said it is acting like I didn't change the controller; freezing up the coils if I set it just a notch too high.
 
Any suggestions relating to diagnostics of the controller such that I can fix this Gibson Dehumidifier?
 
Basement temperature is below 70 and above 60.  The dehumidifier is sitting next to the furnace elevated some 10 inches or so and configured such that it drains to a drain nearby.