Time if up for Whole House Audio Selection

[felixrosbergen]

Hi All,

In a few days i need to confirm what i want for pre-wire in my new house.

Untill recently i was going to do the 16/4 speaker wire with parallel cat5e from basement to wall keypad location and then continue the 16/4 speaker wire to the speakers. In the wall the builder was going to put a 2 gang LV bracket at 50" or so with blank cover. Based on that i figured i had options for russound and Nuvo and a bunch of others.

What has been bothering me most is the lack of Russound and Nuvo to play MP3's natively without and expensive mediaserver that they both offer. I will already have a media server and don't want another one.

Then i found Squeezeboz. This looks like it woudl play music very well, but i am not sure how well it will allow me to integrate it to for 'text to speech' from CQC and ELK, it seems the Russound and Nuvo solutions would make this rather easy.

I think my current pre-wire method would still allow the use of Sqeeuzebox as well. I would just have multiple Squeezebox receivers with amps in the basement and Squeezebox controllers up in the house. I really like the little color screening you you can see what you're doing, much like an Ipod.

The concept of having a wall mounted audio control keypad in the room seems a bit archeic and i don't really expect to get up and walk there to change volume or tune. I don't think the Russound or Nuvo remotes are nearly as sophiticated at the Squeezebox controllers.

Any suggestions for a best of both worlds solution? I guess one could hook the ouput of a squeezebox controller as a source of the Russound/Nuvo, but this seems a bit silly and i would end up with too many remotes. I am sure through CQC and a UMPC or simmilar it could all be made to play nice, but my skill level is not up to that level yet. The wife expects some sort of whole house audio solution shortly after move in day.

Basically they main decision is to just run the 16/4 and cat5 through the walls OR have the building put the LV gangbox in there. If i end up using Squeezebox then the LV gangbox would be an eye-sore forever. I think i will just have them run the wires, cutting a hole in the sheetrock later and putting a 2 gang old work LV box in should be easy enough. If i know where the wires are and they builder leaves a 'loop' in them i should be able to do this.

In the end i may decide to get the Nuvo with their Ipod Bridge, but it's the ability to see the music selection on the remote that is so cool about squeezebox controller that i really want.

Any suggestions much appreciated.

 

[Steve]

Have you looked at the Nuvo Music Port?

 

[felixrosbergen]

I just read that the Squeezebox Controller also has an IR transmitter...has anybody used this? If this can thing can also function as a universal IR things will get very interesting...in fact if i would include a small internet browser so it can pull up webbased CQC pages then we're really in business...

 

[felixrosbergen]

Have you looked at the Nuvo Music Port?

Hi Steve;.... this looks interesting..but it seems the slick GUI must sit on a PC somewhere...if using a UMPC this could work.

They Nuvo keypads would support this as well...but obviously not as easy to navigate from them.

It also seems this is not listed under 'North America' and another thing that worries me is that it sais it requires a dedicated PC.

Has anybody used this?

 

[personalt]

I will not get into the differnt systems.. but run 2 cat 5 to every drop.... and run your speakers by way of the box. dont cut the speaker wire just go in and out.

The reason I say this is if you decide to get an intercom you need a second cat5. also some of the intercoms like russound compoint can interuppt the the speaker wire to send intercom signal over the speaker wire.. hence bringing the speaker wire via the box is a good idea..

Have you looked at the Nuvo Music Port?

Hi Steve;.... this looks interesting..but it seems the slick GUI must sit on a PC somewhere...if using a UMPC this could work.

They Nuvo keypads would support this as well...but obviously not as easy to navigate from them.

It also seems this is not listed under 'North America' and another thing that worries me is that it sais it requires a dedicated PC.

Has anybody used this?

 

[upstatemike]

I am a relatively heavy user of Squeezebox music players (14 zones) so my views are biased:

1- All the big distributed audio makers (Niles, Russound, NuVo) make an iPod dock that can display some meta data on their keypads. For those that don't, Keyspan makes a nice dock with a remote that displays the info on the remote control. If your music strategy is already committed to iTunes and iPods then this might make sense, otherwise probably not.

2- I agree that the idea of controlling a music system from a wall keypad is not appealing. Since I don't often stand facing the wall when I listen to music, having the album/track info displayed there does not seem optimal and the idea of getting up and walking over to the wall to control the music is not ideal. (To be fair I also do not like flush mounted touch screens for similiar reasons and am obviously biased against the whole in-wall control paradigm that is promoted in the fancy home magazines).

3- Most announcement stuff, even within the multizone audio amps from Russound etc, is accomplished through speaker line switching (some functions might use source switching). If all of your speakers are home run to a central location it is pretty easy to use your own relays to switch a zones speakers from the music system to the Elk or HA Computer for announcements. You will of course have to add logic to your announcement events to activate the relays during the announcement. Another advantage of this method is that it is easy to to implement relay driven speaker muting as well. In my system I have my stargate operate relays for announcements and also to mute the speakers when you pick up a phone in that zone. My announcements from Stargate, HA PC, Elk, etc, go to a Radio Shack PA amp which in turn feeds the speakers though the relays.

4- With a Squeezebox system you will need to have a music server running SqueezeCenter. I am currently running a 24/7 PC but I will be switching to a fanless RIPNAS server (WHS based) as soon as they are available. You will need to run the sever 24/7 so the Squeezebox displays can show weather, stocks, HA messages, etc. when not playing music.

5- Squeezeboxes do not contain amplifiers so you need to think about what you will use to power your zones. You can either use local systems in each room (messy but allows local FM tuners, CD players, iPod docks etc) or Zone amps that come on when they see a signal (gives you access to your music server, music services like Rhapsody, and Internet radio but no local sources) If you put all your amps in a central location you have to think about how you would get the line level audio from each player to it's remote amp. If you go with local amps you have to think about where the announcement relays will go and what you need to run for announcement audio lines and announcement relay control lines. Another option is to keep everything centralized and use Duet controllers in each zone. which is the cleanest because there is nothing in the room but an LCD remote and the speakers. I have not tried a Duet yet so I dont't have any feedback for you on that approach. With this you lose the nice displays in each room but maybe that is not a priority for you. (Everyone in my house loves the weather displays on my Squeezeboxes and if I ever removed them I would probably be kicked out of the house!)

6- Another option to consider is Sonos which has some interesting features. Each amp has a local input which can be used for iPod dock or whatever. One of these local inputs can be used for HA announcements and be controlled by Homeseer (and I assume any othe HA package). The amps can be local OR centralized or any mixture. I've never used it but it seems like a clean expandable solution.

 

[WayneW]

Have you looked at the Nuvo Music Port?

Hi Steve;.... this looks interesting..but it seems the slick GUI must sit on a PC somewhere...if using a UMPC this could work.

They Nuvo keypads would support this as well...but obviously not as easy to navigate from them.

It also seems this is not listed under 'North America' and another thing that worries me is that it sais it requires a dedicated PC.

The Nuvo web site is kind of subtle. The MusicPort isn't really listed under North America or International... those groupings are for the tuners. The MusicPort isn't indented under them.

The NEW NuVo remote is as full featured as the Grand Concerto keypad, with the addition of a zone button. http://www.cepro.com/article/nuvo_bows_two...ultiroom_audio/

You may want to look at using the NV-NNA - NuVoNet Adapter to integrate your existing media server into NuVo. I believe that is how CasaTools integrates http://www.casatools.com/

 

[felixrosbergen]

Hi wayne,

That new remote is indeed very interesting...but for $800 i would expect a LCD screening instead of the OLED.

Even with that new remote and an iDock we're still missing the online service capabilities that Squeezebox can provide win the Nuvo product range.

Somehow i fear i will end up simply putting some wiring in and waiting to see what the market comes up with.

If Nuvo and make a remote similar to the squeezebox controller and have the online service they woudl be a winner all around.

 

[WayneW]

That new remote is indeed very interesting...but for $800 i would expect a LCD screening instead of the OLED.

I really like the NuVo OLED keypads, so I suspect I will like the remote. It offers nice brightness (dimmable if desired), great contrast and a great viewing angle. Works great out on the patio, sunny or at night. Of course, it doesn't do album cover art.

Even with that new remote and an iDock we're still missing the online service capabilities that Squeezebox can provide win the Nuvo product range.

True, I don't think NuVo has any announced plans for online service, but you can use a PC output into the NuVo system, albeit without metadata. One drawback to the Squeezebox system, as USM pointed out, is that it doesn't include amplifiers, so you have to figure out where to place them and how to control them.

 

[upstatemike]

A pricey but versatile option would be to use a stack of AudioSource zone amps at a central location for all of your zones except your media room. (You will want to play music through your main system there so put a Squeezebox3 as a local input into your preamp or receiver.) On the AudioSource amps put Squeezebox receivers on each amps input 2. Loop the input 1 lines for all the amps together (they have in and out connections for doing this) and feed them all from your HA system. Get as many Squeezebox Controllers as you need for around the house.

Whenever you start playing music through a given Squeezebox receiver the amp for that zone will come on from the audio trigger feature. Whenever there is an announcement from the HA PC all of the amps will switch to the other input and speak the announcement then switch back to input 2. (You would not have announcements on the media room but you can do that a different way). Be sure to avoid the low end AudioSource amp which has timing issues with the source switching. All except the bottom model have adjustments for time and sensitivity.

 

[felixrosbergen]

3- Most announcement stuff, even within the multizone audio amps from Russound etc, is accomplished through speaker line switching (some functions might use source switching). If all of your speakers are home run to a central location it is pretty easy to use your own relays to switch a zones speakers from the music system to the Elk or HA Computer for announcements. You will of course have to add logic to your announcement events to activate the relays during the announcement. Another advantage of this method is that it is easy to to implement relay driven speaker muting as well. In my system I have my stargate operate relays for announcements and also to mute the speakers when you pick up a phone in that zone. My announcements from Stargate, HA PC, Elk, etc, go to a Radio Shack PA amp which in turn feeds the speakers though the relays.

Hi Mike,

I think some people are using the paging feauture of the russound and Nuvo systems, but i suppose your relay method could work as well.

When you use the relays to switch the speakers from one source (e.g. Nuvo Grand Concerto) to the announcements (single amp driving a whole bunch of speakers) don't you get nasty 'pops' or other noises when the contacts on the relay engage?

If i could install a Nuvo Grand Concerto without any keypads, then connect a Squeezebox receiver as one of the sources and use CQC to capture the squeezebox events and somehow pass them onto the Concerto.....then...i'd probably be a few months down the road....

For now i think i'm going to tell the builder to run the speaker wire and cat5 to a future keypad location, but just put a loop in the cable there and don't put a box in the wall. This gives me several more months to sort out a good solution and the only thing lost is that i have to cut the holes myself IF i want keypads. THis ofcourse assuming i can find the wires in the wall.....i'll take good pictures...

I assume a dremel tool of some sort will work well to cut out a LV box hole in the sheetrock.

 

[upstatemike]

When you use the relays to switch the speakers from one source (e.g. Nuvo Grand Concerto) to the announcements (single amp driving a whole bunch of speakers) don't you get nasty 'pops' or other noises when the contacts on the relay engage?

No. You are thinking of the pop you get when you switch hi-z/line level signals. Most built-in switching features are really just using speaker line switching within the multi-zone amp.

If i could install a Nuvo Grand Concerto without any keypads, then connect a Squeezebox receiver as one of the sources and use CQC to capture the squeezebox events and somehow pass them onto the Concerto.....then...i'd probably be a few months down the road....

Sounds scary... how many potential points of failure would a system like this have? Non-standard NuVo setup + data feed to from SqueezeCenter + CQC programming + data feed to NuVo Remote +...?

 

[felixrosbergen]

Indeed that sounds scary, especially since i'm not the most experience HA'er out there.......

For the time being i could get the Nuvo Grand Concerto and the music port. I'm trying to see if i can get my main TV (51" Sony rear projection 1080i) connected to my HA server via HDMI so that can use it as a monitor and run this musicport GUI.

If CQC can include support for this music port device then things will get interesting.

Does anybody know which online service this musicport device/software combo supports? I'd like online XM or Sirius, Rhapsody and the like.

What i cant figure out how others and getting this done. Maybe i'm just on the wrong track.

Here is the goals:
- Multizone indepdent audio
- Satelite radio (don't care if it's a hardware tuner or via Internet
- Online services (like Rhapsody), this is not critical, but would be nice
- Play audio from TV in any room
- Play local music (preferable including itunes purchased music, but if needed i'll get around the protection)
- Some sort of slick remote that shows you your selections (i.e. Squeezebox Controller type)
- HA announcements (from CQC and/or ELK)

I would think that most of us have a similar wish list....anybody come up with a relatively straightforward solution to accomodate all the wishes?

Right now Nuvo Grand Concerto with the Music Port seems to be able to do all except the 2-way remote concept. Apparently a new 2-way remote is on it's way, but doesnt seem nearly as slick as the Squeezebox controller. Only 2 or 3 lines or text based LED is a bit basic compared to the LCD on the squeezebox controler.

Looks like this 2-way remote control is going to be about $800... can i buy the Concerto without the keypads to offset some of the cost? With this remote wouldnt really need it.

Multiple Squeezebox duets with seperate amps seems to get pretty close as well, but doesnt seem to take in the TV audio. Also I think i would need a Squeezebox receiver for each zone plus an amp for each zone, plug an amp for HA annoucements plus all the relays. This woudl get very messy.

Nuvo with CaseTools also comes close, but lacks the 2-way remote control.

Knowing it's possible makes the 2-way remote control pretty much a must, how can i browse my music selection from the couch otherwise..i assume the Music Port interface on a TV hooked to the computer with a IR remote woudl do the trick.

 

[felixrosbergen]

Come on you bright minds....nobody have an opinion on this?

 

[felixrosbergen]

With Nuvo are you tied into a special line of keypads related to that a unit?

i.e. can i get the Essentia but still get the bigger OLED keypads?

I like the idea of the energy efficeint Essentiate unit... if 40 watts per zone (2 channels of 20W) sufficent for general use? We're not talking massive parties here just listing around the house while reading or cooking, etc.??

I am actually not sure who many keypads i really want since i think remote is much better (who gets of the couch the change song/volume anymore?).

It seems all these units ship with all the keypads..thats too bad since i wouldnt mind one with only 1 or no keypads at all but a lot cheaper...

Trying to decide between Concerto / Grand Concerto and Essentia, i know they have different keypads and different power rating...anything else shockingly different?