uber-simple HV wiring: Electrician really needed?
- Thread starter IVB
- Start date
tmbrown97
Senior Member
To reiterate, you CAN'T run romex (12/2 or 14/2, whatever) inside conduit. It's flat out against CA code... you'll need to put a junction box there to convert from romex to individual wires. To confirm what others have said, you're allowed to do whatever you want in your own home - every inch, every trade - as long as it's done to code and permitted and inspected as necessary. I've done all my own without any issues from the inspector.
IVB
Senior Member
Work2Play said:
I live in CA. So... I need to go from romex to 2 runs of each of these THHN: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-500-ft-14-Gauge-Solid-THHN-Wire-Black-11579057/202316587#.UhrxzpKceIU (well, one black & one white) What about ground?
Thanks for the help. I called an electrician to come on Thursday to estimate the ripping out of the knob & tube plus finishing up this stuff, but its $50-$95/hour so i'm hoping to do at least some of the work myself.
sda
Active Member
Running NM in conduit systems (box to box via conduit) is frowned upon, but the NEC specificially allows it to be run in conduit for protection, which typically includes surface mount drops to a receptacle or switch. That same article is included in the CEC 2010. If there's a code section that negates that, please elaborate.Work2Play said:
NEC 2008 334.15 B
Protection from Physical Damage. Cable shall be
protected from physical damage where necessary by rigid
metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic
tubing, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, or other approved
means.
Honestly, while tapping on to existing K+T is allowed, I would not do it personally. New circuits and wiring should be brought up to present code and K+T should be abandoned wherever it's exposed and grounded circuits installed.
Tap would be tying on midspan somewhere, western unioning the tap, soldering and wrapping with rubberized friction tape, not wire nuts, etc. and while it was never installed that way originally, a box should be used, though in these houses with wiring of this vintage....you'll never see them anywhere but where a fixture is. The only way the you can do a splice without a box would be to use a cat's paw and convert to BX or AC cable.
Tap would be tying on midspan somewhere, western unioning the tap, soldering and wrapping with rubberized friction tape, not wire nuts, etc. and while it was never installed that way originally, a box should be used, though in these houses with wiring of this vintage....you'll never see them anywhere but where a fixture is. The only way the you can do a splice without a box would be to use a cat's paw and convert to BX or AC cable.
tmbrown97
Senior Member
If we're going to nitpick, technically romex can be in conduit if the length is less than 6' and the location is not considered a wet or damp location. Apparently the "damp location" can depend on locality and the local AHJ's interpretation.
That said, running under the house can fall under "damp location" as well depending on the inspector it would seem, in which case romex isn't specifically rated for that. This I believe is part of a newer code revision, so if you don't pull a permit, it could look like it was done before the change (2009?); if you're having it inspected, then you want to follow current code.
If it were me, I'd call the local AHJ and just tell them my plan and make sure they're cool with it - if not they'll let you know. I'm no electrician although I do plenty of it myself and I've had to call the inspector to dispute something - in the end they didn't like something but I was within code and they could find no reason not to allow it - and once they were OK with my reasoning for doing it the way I did, everything was fine... but I suspect if I hadn't pre-cleared it, they would've been a little more picky.
*As stated, I'm not an electrician - this is just what I've learned through some minor commercial electrical and some major home renovation projects. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry - please consider my advice a topic to research and confirm yourself and nothing more... I could always be wrong.
That said, running under the house can fall under "damp location" as well depending on the inspector it would seem, in which case romex isn't specifically rated for that. This I believe is part of a newer code revision, so if you don't pull a permit, it could look like it was done before the change (2009?); if you're having it inspected, then you want to follow current code.
If it were me, I'd call the local AHJ and just tell them my plan and make sure they're cool with it - if not they'll let you know. I'm no electrician although I do plenty of it myself and I've had to call the inspector to dispute something - in the end they didn't like something but I was within code and they could find no reason not to allow it - and once they were OK with my reasoning for doing it the way I did, everything was fine... but I suspect if I hadn't pre-cleared it, they would've been a little more picky.
*As stated, I'm not an electrician - this is just what I've learned through some minor commercial electrical and some major home renovation projects. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry - please consider my advice a topic to research and confirm yourself and nothing more... I could always be wrong.
IVB
Senior Member
The K&T needs to be abandoned and quickly, I added acoustic insulation inside the wall where it all is. I didn't know about the heat dissipation issue. But that wall separates my kids bedroom from the TV/Living room, and I need the acoustic insulation. (Doesn't help with LFE, but it significantly reduced the voices travelling)
Question:Since I'm running all new stuff, I can/should just:
1) Run Romex to panel (licensed electrician will validate my run and do the actual connection in the box)
2) Put romex through a hole in target location
3) Put surface-mount junction box on other side of hole
4) Tie romex to 3 THHN (green, white, black)
5) Fish 3 THHN through PVC conduit to light switch (also PVC box)
6) Keep fishing 3 THHN through conduit to light box
Is that correct?
The one thing I'm conflicted about is whether to
A) put a surface mounted box for the light affixed to a stud on other side which means giving up 4" of space plus quite ugly
B) Run conduit through the ceiling, romex the 2 feet to the light location, then cut hole in the 100 year old brittle plaster/lathe ceiling with blow-in insulation on other side. Looks prettier but significantly more work, may not be patchable to look consistent.
Thats a personal decision, not excited about either option. The reason I'm not burying the romex inside the wall is that particular location has the original 1911 everything, aka super brittle and I'd end up having to take down and rebuild the wall just for a single wire. I can hide the vertical PVC conduit quite easily, plus its inside a closet so nobody will care.
Question:Since I'm running all new stuff, I can/should just:
1) Run Romex to panel (licensed electrician will validate my run and do the actual connection in the box)
2) Put romex through a hole in target location
3) Put surface-mount junction box on other side of hole
4) Tie romex to 3 THHN (green, white, black)
5) Fish 3 THHN through PVC conduit to light switch (also PVC box)
6) Keep fishing 3 THHN through conduit to light box
Is that correct?
The one thing I'm conflicted about is whether to
A) put a surface mounted box for the light affixed to a stud on other side which means giving up 4" of space plus quite ugly
B) Run conduit through the ceiling, romex the 2 feet to the light location, then cut hole in the 100 year old brittle plaster/lathe ceiling with blow-in insulation on other side. Looks prettier but significantly more work, may not be patchable to look consistent.
Thats a personal decision, not excited about either option. The reason I'm not burying the romex inside the wall is that particular location has the original 1911 everything, aka super brittle and I'd end up having to take down and rebuild the wall just for a single wire. I can hide the vertical PVC conduit quite easily, plus its inside a closet so nobody will care.
@ work, all I need to do is run UF rated NM cable and that satisfies any wet location issue. You can run the full length of the conduit at that rate, as long as the derating and cable fill is considered, though pulling romex through conduit (especially PVC) isn't going to be fun.
Not to put the fear into you, but the K+T thing is usually twofold....Usually the heat issue is because old K+T circuits end up overloaded with all the gizmos and gadgets we have in our houses....remember when this wiring method was prevalent, the most you really had was a fan, a lamp, and possibly a radio. That's it. The wiring was installed in a manner to both help with separating the conductors and heat dissipation.
Rereading the intended application...in the case of running cabling through the closet for lighting...why not use wiremold and the related boxes and hardware? It's a heck of a lot neater, looks nicer and that's what it's intended to do, let alone the fittings and extensions already exist to get the wiring from an existing point to where you need it.
Then what you can do is run all the circuit as you need to from the main box, then feed your new closet lite circuit, then have the electrician land the cables in the breaker box, verify your wiring methods and terminations that you can do yourself....
Not to put the fear into you, but the K+T thing is usually twofold....Usually the heat issue is because old K+T circuits end up overloaded with all the gizmos and gadgets we have in our houses....remember when this wiring method was prevalent, the most you really had was a fan, a lamp, and possibly a radio. That's it. The wiring was installed in a manner to both help with separating the conductors and heat dissipation.
Rereading the intended application...in the case of running cabling through the closet for lighting...why not use wiremold and the related boxes and hardware? It's a heck of a lot neater, looks nicer and that's what it's intended to do, let alone the fittings and extensions already exist to get the wiring from an existing point to where you need it.
Then what you can do is run all the circuit as you need to from the main box, then feed your new closet lite circuit, then have the electrician land the cables in the breaker box, verify your wiring methods and terminations that you can do yourself....
tmbrown97
Senior Member
I'm no electrician and this is going OT but now I'll have to look for a code reference, because my understanding of the romex inside conduit had to do with a rule about not having triple insulation... If I find something relevant later I'll post it. Opposite ends of the country, but out here it's been the accepted rule of anyone I've talked to.
