UPB noise problem

[speacock]

I live in a six unit condo and just installed six US1-40 and three US2-40 switches on Saturday. During install there was zero noise and comms were perfect. Monday night I got hit with severe noise, average 15-18. Plugged into an outlet under the main panel with all other breakers turned off I average 22-24 with spikes to 30. Switches are mostly working, but commands are hit or miss. Programming is not possible on some devices. Hoping the PIM might be the problem I plugged into a UPS which dropped noise to a 14. Pulling the line in on the UPS and noise drops to zero proving the PIM is not the problem. Testing an outlet on the next building over shows zero noise with blips to one every now and then. Since it appears to be external I hoped for a time of day issue. Noise was there every time I checked until 1:00 am and was still there at 5:00 am.

Any suggestions or should I just start saving up for RadioRA?

Thanks,
Sean

 

[LightenUP]

There aren't too many responses so I thought I'd post one to help instill confidence. In upstart you can run a log which would help time stamp things to maybe determine where or what it is. Noise from neighbors is very tough to deal with so hopefully it may be something localized. You mentioned turning off all breakers but is the noise level the same on each phase? That may be a solution to make sure everything is alligned and I would suggest Gen II on all units.

 

[DeLicious]

my first thought was why immediately consider RadioRA? Was ZWave not a consideration? I had considerable UPB noise in my installation as well, and since I've switched to ZWave, I have had 0 problems.

 

[speacock]

LightenUP,

I checked on Fri around noon and the noise was gone. However it was back that night. Gives me hope it is a TOD thing. The building has a bunch of CFL and other lights on timers that might be the issue. If not, only five other units to check. <sigh> I bumped transmit repeats up to four, but it still took three button presses for all-off to succeed. The repeats did catch two lights though and other smaller links seem to work normally though.

I know you can't compare Gen I to Gen II, but are there any hard numbers on what Gen I noise levels are survivable in Get II? For example if Gen II works up to noise level 10, it won't help me. Level 20 survivability might be worth the cost to swap everything out.

DeLicious,

I looked into Z-Wave. I'm okay with the Vizia device appearance, not a fan of Cooper or Intermatic though. The Homeseer all in one sensor looks really nice and is a big attraction to Z-wave. My killer issue is the caveats listed in the Elk interface docs. Specifically: "Since the Z-Wave protocol does NOT include Broadcasting of Status Changes, a rule in the M1 _cannot_use_Z-Wave_Devices_as_activators_or_conditionals._ In other words, the M1 Control does not know if the state of a Z-Wave device has been manually changed or changed by another controller" (emphasis theirs). I live alone so I do a lot with light switch state such as "if bedroom light off after 10:00pm, all lights off" or "if watch TV pressed, Loft to 40%, all others off".

Going over the other Elk supported solutions, OnQ-ALC is hardwired. Centralite Jetstream has status update and firmware limitations. Tried Insteon before and don't care for their feel. Also, without the ISY they make life painful. Won't touch X10 again either. The Elk RadioRA appears to be a bit limited compared to UPB and it is above my budget, but might be worth it if the reliability is there like others are claiming.

Finally, I've looked at Homeworks and there are many positive comments, but the Elk doesn't support it directly. However it appears the Homeworks controller might handle the conditionals internally. Unfortunately, ~$300/switch and dealer only distribution is hard for me to take.

 

[DeLicious]

ah, you didn't mention the elk in your first post

i know elk just expanded their support of z-wave using a Leviton RZC0P interface and johnny9's z-wave application, but I haven't tried it myself. i would image it might support periodic polling though, so you could have everything up to date, say, every 5 minutes or something. i don't know how acceptable that would be to you, but again, i haven't tried it and don't quite know the details.

 

[Steve]

I know you can't compare Gen I to Gen II, but are there any hard numbers on what Gen I noise levels are survivable in Get II? For example if Gen II works up to noise level 10, it won't help me. Level 20 survivability might be worth the cost to swap everything out.

According to PCS, the signal should be survivable with noise peaking in the 20-25 range. It make still not be 100% at that noise level, but most likely will still get through.

 

[brotsten]

If the outside building lights are controlled via photocell, you can use a laser pointer aimed at the photocell to temporarily shut them off for testing.

Brian

 

[speacock]

Steve,

Any opinion on PCS vs Web Mountain for noise immunity? PCS has some nice features, but Web mountain SW-7s are cheaper.

Signal strength is not the issue. An appliance module directly plugged into the PIM with level 14 noise was almost completely unreachable. One out of eight on/off codes reached it.

Stayed late one morning. Exterior lights were off and the noise was still there. Points toward one of my neighbors. I did find that the majority of my lights are on one phase and the other phase is only at 4-5 on noise. If I can just swap a couple of breakers things might become usable.

 

[Steve]

I have not tried any Web Mountain products but they are just SAI switches with Gen II firmware, so I would expect them to perform about the same as PCS. Keep in mind to see the Gen II noise benefits you need a Gen II PIM as well.

 

[speacock]

Success. Swapped two breakers and moved another two down into open slots. Now all is better, at least until the noise generator gets moved to the other phase.

 

[LightenUP]

In most cases phase alligning works around noise. You are correct if you can get the culpret on the other phase then the noise will be attenuated and won't be an issue.

Most of my installs are much smaller than the folks on here but am in several homes, which offers unique environments to deal with. I have noticed recently Samsung flat panel TVs are a pain, though they can be filtered using the X-10 5amp, as long as the TV isn't higher than that limitation.

I mostly use the Web Mtn stuff and have been pleased. PCS is great though, hard to beat american made unless margins are a concern.