UPB or Insteon?

[FrankMc]

Hi Randy

Here in Oz we use Clipsal CBUS for hardwired lighting ...They have some fantastic looking switches (IMHO) ....Cat 5 is used to daisy chain between switches.....
Check out the links......I believe there are 110v version of CBUS kit avialable .....

http://www.hobby.armaghelectrical.com.au/page79.html

http://tinyurl.com/n4wpc

Clipsal USA Inc.
Tel: +1 858 674 2555
Fax: +1 858 451 9777
E-Mail: [email protected]


HTH
Frank

PS........If you decide to go with UPB ...Please have a look at xPL (FREE) as theres a plugin for UPB...

http://wiki.xplproject.org.uk/index.php/Main_Page


Also the same Author of UPB4JAVA ( Gerry Duprey) posted the following on the Homevision list which some may find interesting...

********************************************************************
Howdy All,

I've become very frustrated with the limitation of the upstart program. In
particular, things like easily editing presets and the impossibility of
copying links are driving me batty. My motivator was wanting to make a
duplicate of a link that has 70+ devices and that I want to be similar but not
exactly the same as the original. There is no way to do this in UPStart short
of creating a new link and hand typing all 70+ devices in. Phui!

To that end, I'm attempting to create a UPStart related utility. For now, the
utility will be just to "help" out UPStart by providing functions UPStart does
not. It will not be a replacement for UPStart, though that certainly is
possible some day down the line.

The problem is the UPStart export file format, while well documented and easy
to parse, is missing a lot of data and cannot be "imported" back. So I have
to parse the actual UPStart file itself and this is not documented.

I would like to ask anyone who has any UPB devices and a UPStart config -- no
matter how small or large your UPB installation is -- to send me a copy of
their UPStart file (it has an extension of .upb -- NOT the .upe (which is the
export file)).

I'm doing this so I can spot differences between different UPStart files to
aide in decoding each piece/part of the file. I've done a lot with creating
various test files here, but I'm flying blind and could really use any data
points I can get.

If you'd like to help, you can send me the file directly as an attachment and
please put something like "UPStart File" in the subject line (so if your email
gets stuck in my SPAM folder, I can quickly find and pull it out). I will not
share or publicize your file in any way and will purge it when I'm done my
analysis. I don't think there is really any personal data in the file, but in
case there is, I want to let folks know I'll take care and discretion with
their data.

The resulting utilities will be free to anyone who wants to use it (at least
for non-commercial use) and will be written in Java so it will run on any
platform (Windows/linux/etc). I can't say what the time frame is, but I'll
post periodic updates as I progress.

My first two goals, beyond being able to parse and re-write the UPStart file
(which is the *major* bit of work), will be a tool that lets you "copy" links
(with all devices) and a spreadsheet oriented link editor that lets you
see/adjust all the levels/fade rates of all devices in a link in a single view.

If you have any questions or thoughts, please feel free to drop me a note.
And in advance, thanks to everyone who can help out.

Gerry
--
Gerry Duprey
Ann Arbor, MI 48103
http://www.cdp1802.org

 

[johnnynine]

For clarification:

1.) SmartLabs is not discontinuing ICON.

2.) All Insteon-enabled devices are inherently two-way.

Ugh, I almost fainted when I read ICON was being discontinued!

Thanks for the update SmartLabsMike.

 

[SmartLabsMike]

Glad I could help.

 

[Snap_75]

What about OnQ, how do they work around this?

This is from EDT's (another hardwired solution that daisy chains CAT5 to each load controller) website. As long as the jacket insulation on the CAT5 cable is rated 250V, there shouldn't be a problem. Also, it looks like there is a stipulation on the proximity of exposed conductors between the low and high voltage circuits.

NEC 300.3©(1)

© Conductors of Different Systems.

(1) 600 Volts, Nominal or Less. Conductors of circuits rated 600 volts, nominal, or less, ac circuits, and dc circuits shall be permitted to occupy the same equipment wiring enclosure, cable, or raceway. All conductors shall have an insulation rating equal to at least the maximum circuit voltage applied to any conductor within the enclosure, cable, or raceway.

NEC 725.55(D)

(D) Associated Systems Within Enclosures. Class 2 and Class 3 circuit conductors in compartments, enclosures, device boxes, outlet boxes, or similar fittings shall be permitted to be installed with electric light, power, Class 1, non-power-limited fire alarm, and medium power network-powered broadband communications circuits where they are introduced solely to connect the equipment connected to Class 2 and Class 3 circuits, and where (1) or (2) applies:

(1) The electric light, power, Class 1, non-power-limited fire alarm, and medium power network-powered broadband communications circuit conductors are routed to maintain a minimum of 6 mm (0.25 in.) separation from the conductors and cables of Class 2 and Class 3 circuits.

(2) The circuit conductors operate at 150 volts or less to ground and also comply with one of the following: a. The Class 2 and Class 3 circuits are installed using Type CL3, CL3R, or CL3P or permitted substitute cables, provided these Class 3 cable conductors extending beyond the jacket are separated by a minimum of 6 mm (0.25 in.) or by a nonconductive sleeve or nonconductive barrier from all other conductors. b. The Class 2 and Class 3 circuit conductors are installed as a Class 1 circuit in accordance with 725.21.

I work in industrial automation and we build control panels that mix many levels of voltages. All cabling used is 600V rated and we never run into any problems with inspections.

EDT's Web Page with NEC quotes

 

[pjwinstalls]

I've read through this topic and see in a few instances people have put a lot of insteon switches in their house. From looking at an insteon manual, it seems that you have to have 3 wires in your switch box instead of the usual 2 (12/3 wire versus 12/2) How are you getting around that??

Thanks

Philip

 

[WayneW]

I've read through this topic and see in a few instances people have put a lot of insteon switches in their house. From looking at an insteon manual, it seems that you have to have 3 wires in your switch box instead of the usual 2 (12/3 wire versus 12/2) How are you getting around that??

Thanks

Philip

Welcome to CocoonTech! Insteon switches require a neutral, so you need a hot, neutral, load and ground in the switchbox. If you don't have a neutral and it is not a 3 way switch (that can have a traveler wire converted to neutral), then you will probably need to run a wire from someplace, but that all depends upon your circumstances.

 

[pjwinstalls]

Thanks for the welcome....... I understand that it needs all those wires. My question is people that are stating that they are putting 40 or 50 insteon switches in...how are they doing this? I would guess that 99% of houses arent wired this way as I see no reason that they should have been when built. Are these people rewiring their entire house?

 

[electron]

Most newer houses (I would say less than 15years old) are already wired correctly, even the cheaper ones.

 

[pjwinstalls]

so your saying that these newer houses are wired with 12/3 or 14/3 to the switch box?

 

[RandyKnight]

The house I'm in now is a relatively low-end tract home built in 2005. And I have yet to find a box without a neutral. So I would have to agree that most newer homes are wired this way.

 

[electron]

From what I have seen (in my area, which is CNY), yes.

 

[upstatemike]

so your saying that these newer houses are wired with 12/3 or 14/3 to the switch box?

In my (very old) house all of the switches are wired with the feed going to the switch first and then on to the fixture. the feed wire provides hot and neutral in and the wire going on to the fixture is the load and neutral out.

There was a period of time a few years back when builders would run the feed to the fixture and then drop a 14/2 from the fixture to a switchbox. In this case the black wire is a feed and the white wire is remarked to be the load return. There is no neutral available for modern switches in this configuration unless they happened to use a 14/3 (or 12/3) for the spur down to the switchbox.

Hopefully all builders who wired homes with the feed wire going to the fixture instead of the switch are languishing in some prison somewhere to pay for their crimes but that won't help you if you have one of these homes.

 

[WayneW]

so your saying that these newer houses are wired with 12/3 or 14/3 to the switch box?

"correctly" does not imply that 12/3 or 14/3 was needed or used. For a single switch (non 3way), I don't believe there is a need for x/3 wire, regardless if the feed is wired to the switch or to the fixture.

 

[upstatemike]

I don't believe there is a need for x/3 wire, regardless if the feed is wired to the switch or to the fixture.

If the feed is to the fixture then an x/3 is always required down to the switchbox or you won't have enough conductors to have a neutral at the switch.

In reality the most correct wiring scheme is to have the feed go to the switchbox first and still have an x/3 wire between the switch and the fixture. This gives you a neutral at the switch and 2 switched feeds to the fixture in case the homeowner wants to install a ceiling fan at a later time.

 

[WayneW]

If the feed is to the fixture then an x/3 is always required down to the switchbox or you won't have enough conductors to have a neutral at the switch.

But that is only if you request a neutral in the switchbox. I doubt any electricians do that by default. Nice if you have it, but I doubt existing homes have it, they probably have x/2 for a supply & return only.

In reality the most correct wiring scheme is to have the feed go to the switchbox first and still have an x/3 wire between the switch and the fixture. This gives you a neutral at the switch and 2 switched feeds to the fixture in case the homeowner wants to install a ceiling fan at a later time.

Again, that is an ideal way to have it, but I doubt many existing homes have that unless it was specifically requested. And this is getting away from the basic single switch & fixture scenario. When you get into complicated things, then it becomes much more likely that a neutral is present.