UPB or Insteon

jimhannah

Member
You veteran CocoonTech guys must be getting tired of the repeated threads asking UPB or Insteon???. Well, here’s another one.

I sent my bill-of-materials along with a bunch of questions to Martin at Automated Outlet today and he very promptly and completely responded. I am ready to purchase a modest system with Elk-M1G integrating some security and automation stuff. After 4 months of testing a few Insteon devices with rock solid performance and reading page after page of pros and cons here and other places, I have spec’ed an Elk/Insteon system. Consistent with his previous recommendations in this forum and others, Martin recommended I consider UPB. My eyes are crossed now from reading for the past 3 hours dozens of posts on this subject. I was trying to be very scientific and objective about the whole thing, but it appears to be a toss up. There are many pros AND cons on both sides.

Can anyone point me toward some definitive comparative analysis or anecdotal evidence that would help me decide?

Unless I get some indisputable evidence to the contrary, I’m going to use the rock solid performance of my limited Insteon testing and continue down the Insteon path. Sometimes you just have to “finally decide”. :)
TIA,

jim
 
I made a decision almost two years ago and I am glad I did. Since then I have mostly enjoyed my decision (nothing in life is perfect). If I didn't make a decision when I did, I can easily imagine myself now, almost two years later with nothing but more fence pickets up my butt to show for it. Get off the fence and enjoy something. :) There is no easy answer and unless you are one of the EXTREME minority, any decision you make will be good.
 
And I'm pretty firmly in the UPB camp and happy there. Kind of depends on what you are really looking for. Insteon is from 1 primary vendor (1 source/style for switch), UPB you have choice of 3. Insteon will be less expensive. UPStart is still better for programming than anything for Insteon. Any of the protocols can have issues, but in general UPB will be just as rock solid as Insteon. 2 years ago I did the same as you, but I evaluated both. While I agree with Wayne in that you need to get off the fence and enjoy something, it can be a big investment so you want to do your due diligence. Maybe try a UPB starter kit, run it side by side with your Insteon, play with the different switches and programming and decide in a few weeks. At least then you won't come back in a few months and say "I really wish I tried...". Get it out of your system now, make your decision and enjoy it...
 
Actually, in my opinion, Z-Wave is the protocol that seems to be getting the least amount of "cons" posts here. Of course that may be because of its popularity compared with UPB and Insteon... :)
 
Maybe try a UPB starter kit, run it side by side with your Insteon, play with the different switches and programming and decide in a few weeks. At least then you won't come back in a few months and say "I really wish I tried...". Get it out of your system now, make your decision and enjoy it...
I am in the UPB camp. But, I think that Steve has the best advice, Buy a couple of evaluation kits and try them both in your situation.
 
I am beginning to think the two protocols are diverging in who they appeal to based on the priorities of the people who buy them.

Insteon has a lower cost of entry (much much lower 2 years ago) so it is the option for those who simply can not afford a whole house transition to UPB.

UPB has more manufacturers but less variety in their device lineup (No screw in modules, etc.)

Insteon has had quality control issues with switch paddles, keypad firmware, appliance module current sensors, and screw in module firmware. This was tough on early adopters but should not be an issue for those just now starting into it.

The inventor of UPB believes that any load can be switched using a TRIAC in on/off mode (this is not true) so UPB was slow to come out with relay switches.

UPB has good management software in UPStart that really makes it easy to configure.

Insteon links can be managed very well with PowerHome or a Universal Devices ISY-26... Just don't under any circumstances have anything to do with SmartHome's HouseLinc software.

UPB switches have a very reserved/conservative look and feel that is elegant (but not as much fun).

Insteon switches and keypads use white LEDs with interchangeable color filters to let you do some cool stuff.

Many people say Insteon LEDs are too bright.

Many people say UPB LEDs are not bright enough.

Some people say Insteon LEDs are not bright enough.

Most people say it sucks that UPB kaypads do not have LEDs for each button.

The Insteon RF remote has turned out to have very good range and looks pretty nice in person but does not photograph well.

Not sure if there is a UPB RF remote?

UPB is supported by a wide range of controllers, panels and programs that offer basic scene control

Insteon is supported by fewer systems but has some cooler applications written for it (Light Show Master, etc.)

Insteon has the advantage of supporting old X-10 stuff directly

There are plenty of X-10 bridge devices for UPB

UPB was designed to meet the needs of professional installers (and wealthy DIYers) with a large profit margin and easy setup using UPStart. It was intended mostly to control lighting and set lighting scenes.

The marketing strategy for Insteon continues to defy any logical analysis. It is clear though that Insteon is meant to control a much broader range of devices including thermostats, low voltage relays etc. It is becoming common now to assign a button on an Insteon controller to control a garage door for example, or have the light on a spare keypad button act as an indicator for something. Great hobby stuff that might not even interest a UPB person.
 
You guys are awesome. This will be helpful not only to me but likely to many others as well. I'm glad we revisited this area.

WayneW, I hear ya loud and clear!!!

upstatemike, Excellent.

thanks to all
 
That is a nice writeup Mike, just wanted to clarify/comment a few points...

Insteon has a lower cost of entry (much much lower 2 years ago) so it is the option for those who simply can not afford a whole house transition to UPB.
Not really as big deal any more. $15 difference between a Switchlinc and HAI UPB, and I bet that diff gets even smaller in quantity.

UPB has more manufacturers but less variety in their device lineup (No screw in modules, etc.)
Depends on what you mean by variety. Insteon *should* have a ton more devices from many manufacturers as promised, but that has not materialized yet. I believe the only device Smarthome has over UPB is the screw in bulb module. But UPB has true wired inline relays and dimmers, a plug in I/O module, a plug in scheduler/timer module and a plug in pocket programmer. Insteon does not have those. So at this moment in time I don't think that's a fair statement.

UPB switches have a very reserved/conservative look and feel that is elegant (but not as much fun).
Compared to what? It's all just Decora (switchlincs and UPB stuff). Insteon has a light bar vs a single LED, but that is a personal preference. I happen to think the single LED is contemporary looking. With UPB each manufacturers switch has a slightly different feel and look so there is actually more choice there too. And a UPB switch with light bar is still rumored. Don't understand what is 'fun' about Insteon? Now, something like the i-line switches are 'different/cooler' with their curvy paddle.

Many people say UPB LEDs are not bright enough.
I'd like to see the stats on that. The different manufacturers use different LEDs with different colors (actually not a benefit) and some are brighter than others, but I found the HAI too bright. The SAI's are about right, but also a bit bright and the PCS are a bit dimmer. But I think you may be thinking about complaints about the UPB slave switch (UFR). The LED on that is all but worthless, but the regular switches LEDs are plenty bright and I've never seen a single complaint on that.

Most people say it sucks that UPB kaypads do not have LEDs for each button.
That's only for SAI and because they offer many different paddle configurations - which is something else not available on Insteon. I really like ones like the dual vertical paddle which looks just like a regular decora panel, just split in two. Use one for the local load and the other can be used for a scene or to control another load with a wired in module. The HAI and PCS multi button do have lighted buttons that light up individually. Now, there is talk about the light when used with scenes or when there are multiple loads in different states and how to reflect that with 1 light.

Not sure if there is a UPB RF remote?
No, but then again UPB does not do any RF at all. But I can easily use any x10 RF device with the converter, or any other wireless device (like a Caddx keyfob) to control UPB device via a panel or other HA system.

UPB was designed to meet the needs of professional installers (and wealthy DIYers) with a large profit margin and easy setup using UPStart. It was intended mostly to control lighting and set lighting scenes.
I am far from a wealthy DIY'er but I put a big value on my time as well. When I decided 2 years ago, UPB was (and still is the leader) much easier to setup and program, and I did not have to battle defective paddles, although in all fairness there was apparently 1 bad batch of switches from SAI which I did have to swap under warranty (with no questions or issues I may add). Yes, Insteon will leave more cash in your pocket, but its not a huge difference any more when you factor in everything.

The marketing strategy for Insteon continues to defy any logical analysis. It is clear though that Insteon is meant to control a much broader range of devices including thermostats, low voltage relays etc. It is becoming common now to assign a button on an Insteon controller to control a garage door for example, or have the light on a spare keypad button act as an indicator for something. Great hobby stuff that might not even interest a UPB person.
I can pretty much do anything with UPB that you can with Insteon. Insteon *should* have more integrated devices as hyped, but its not there yet. UPB has its own low voltage relay (I/O) module and I can track light status with lighted keypads. There are also UPB controlled t-stats, pool controllers and even vacuums.

I don't want this coming off as a 'defense' or pro UPB post, just want it all balanced with right info. They are both excellent protocols and have their strengths and weaknesses. And each will appeal to different people for different reasons, some which may seem trivial. Some people may just be 100% about cost, regardless of how big or small a difference - they will go to Insteon. Some just have to have light bars, they will go to Insteon. Some just have to have configurable faceplates - they will go to UPB. Some will try the feel of all of them and pick based on what feels right. Some want pure easy of programming, they will go UPB/ with UPStart. So I stand by my original recommendation to just try them both and choose based on their wants/needs - either one will work well and come with their own issues.
 
Not sure if there is a UPB RF remote?
There certainly is. PCS Lighting six button wall switches have an RF eye built in. The RF remote can control, I believe, two six button controllers. Sorry I couldn't give you a link but I have the remote in my stock.
 
The HAI and PCS multi button do have lighted buttons that light up individually. Now, there is talk about the light when used with scenes or when there are multiple loads in different states and how to reflect that with 1 light.

This question comes up a lot (regardless of protocol) and I have never understood why there is a debate. A scene is either ON (TRUE) or NOT ON (FALSE). Any time ANY device included in a scene is in a state other than the designated scene state (off instead of on OR at a different dim level) then the scene is no longer true and the LED on the scene button should be off.

So if you press a scene button the scene should get set and the LED should go on. If you press the scene button again then the scene info should be resent and the LED should STAY ON. If another scene button is pressed than the LED on the first scene button should go off. If ANY device included in the scene is adjusted locally or from a different controller then the scene LED should go OFF.

This is the correct behavior but it is rarely implemented because it requires each keypad to monitor local device changes to keep the LED accurate.
 
Mike,

To expand on your "Scene" issue, I don't like the way Insteon handles it. If you have a scene button on a keypad and turn the scene "ON" and someone controls a light at the source, the keypad LED goes off. So to turn the scene OFF, you either have to either have a separate OFF scene button or turnt he scene back ON, and then OFF.

Also, I don't know how UPB does this, but Insteon won't let you use a keypad button to turn some loads on and other off for true scene control.
 
I am seriously considering a side-by-side comparison as Steve has recommended above and Martin at AO has made a reasonable offer in that regard.

Will I have a problem with the Elk/Insteon interface coexisting with an Elk/UPB interface?

What about UpStart and PowerHome? Must I use Powerhome for Insteon management (I know there's other S/W available but assume for now I will use PH) or will UpStart work there (I assume not)? So I must use UpStart for my UPB devices and PH for Insteon? (Understand comment above about HouseLinc; been there, done that.)

What am I getting into? :blink: Oh well, I've spent the last 4 decades in R&D; might as well spend my retirement doing the same. Gotta love it.

Thanks again.
 
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