Upb phase coupler

[pete_c]

At the beginning of my UPB implementation migration I installed an SA (one with three leds) passive coupler into the panel. All appeared fine with signal levels between 50-100 on the same phase switches and between 10-20 on the opposite phase switches.

Last night noticed one of the switches didn't shut off according to schedule. I looked at the communications and noticed noise and no communications on the opposite not connected phase switches. This is the first time I've noticed any noise.

I don't understand where the noise is coming from as I have changed/added appliances/devices to the outlets since installation; only more UPB switches.

I have the passive coupler installed on two autonomous breakers at the bottom of the panel. I've seen where folks have added second couplers; would this work for me? Should I move the connections to the top of the panel? Should I try an HAI passive coupler or a PCS passive coupler?

 

[Desert_AIP]

Are you using CFL bulbs?
I've found some that generate so much noise when on they block all line transmissions.

I've used the SA main load panel coupler for about 3 years in two separate houses, one in a densely populated neightborhood, with no problems.

 

[pete_c]

I use CFL bulbs in the basement. Its pretty much just a storage room so the lights are not typically one. Did another check tonight and there was little noise and decent signal strength.

 

[Desert_AIP]

You might want to bring up UpStart to monitor the noise levels, and sequentially turn things on to isolate the load causing the problem.
If it's not one of the UPB loads, it may be a motor somewhere else.
Washer/dryer, dishwasher, furnace blower, etc.

 

[pete_c]

The currently installed UPB loads are just conventional incandescent lamps in the bedrooms (nothing else other than dimming them to 30%)

Last night before going to bed checked signal levels with Upstart. Odd all appeared fine with decent signal levels (over 40 on same phase and over 10 on opposite phase). All of the UPB switches worked fine. The only motor running 24/7 is the furnace blower fan motor. My wife wasn't washing any clothes the night before but I believe the dishwasher was on.

One thing did change though this past week. I installed a UPS on the MM center in the family room with no UPB filters. Will turn on all the equipment in MM room/try dishwasher and compare UPB signal levels before and after.

Upstart is great - tested the following (I also noticed some noise the other night). Still working on second floor and all of it is on one phase of the fuse panel. I have 1 UPB on main floor and its on second phase of fuse panel.

Would adding more switches on the opposite phase (main floor) help me some?

Using 1 UPB device in the family room on the opposite phase. All the devices on the same phase have excellent UPB signals. I do also have X-10 and Insteon various devices online.

- benchmark - nothing extra on

Signal at PIM = 10
Signal at Dev = 15

- TV-MM "stuff" all on
Signal at PIM = 11
Signal at Dev = 15

- Dishwasher on
Signal at PIM = 10
Signal at Dev = 15

- basement CCFL's all on (12)
Signal at PIM = 8
Signal at Dev = 13

- basement dehumidifier
Signal at PIM = 8
Signal at Dev = 14

- main house supplimental water pump
Signal at PIM = 8
Signal at Dev = 14

- washing machine (spin cycle)
Signal at PIM = 9
Signal at Dev = 14

- dryer on
Signal at PIM = 8
Signal at Dev = 14

- Landscaping transformers (4 toroidal commercial style)
Signal at PIM = 8
Signal at Dev = 14

 

[Penman]

At the beginning of my UPB implementation migration I installed an SA (one with three leds) passive coupler into the panel. All appeared fine with signal levels between 50-100 on the same phase switches and between 10-20 on the opposite phase switches.

Last night noticed one of the switches didn't shut off according to schedule. I looked at the communications and noticed noise and no communications on the opposite not connected phase switches. This is the first time I've noticed any noise.

I don't understand where the noise is coming from as I have changed/added appliances/devices to the outlets since installation; only more UPB switches.

I have the passive coupler installed on two autonomous breakers at the bottom of the panel. I've seen where folks have added second couplers; would this work for me? Should I move the connections to the top of the panel? Should I try an HAI passive coupler or a PCS passive coupler?

I have had an SA phase-coupler go bad, and quit working altogether. I replaced it with a PCS one.

Also, another source of noise can be cheap "wall wart" power supplies going bad. I have had this happen twice, once with one that was plugged into the same outlet as my UPB computer interface. It made communication impossible.

If you do see substantial noise, you could try turning off breakers one-by-one.

 

[pete_c]

I may have found the source of the UPB powerline noise. The last two days have been uneventful relating to excessive noise. The UPB power levels have been fine. What I noticed is that I lost a small Malibu lighting transformer (I current have 4 commercial toroidal type and 1 cheaper Malibu transformer). I noticed last night that one set (zone with 4 lights) was alternating on/off all night. I checked the transformer and it was very warm (hot). I've taken it off line for the time being but guessing that that might have been the cause of the UPB noise on my lines.

I was going to try the "other" two choices in passive couplers anyways (HAI and PCS) to see if they make a different to the opposite phase signal strength.

 

[pete_c]

Noted another issue.

I have been testing Z-Wave. I am only testing appliance and lighting modules. I removed 4 appliance modules a few weeks back because they were flipping breakers. For two plus years have historically used an X-10 appliance module with this small Malibu (85 watt) transformer. I am now thinking that maybe the Z-Wave appliance module killed the transformer? I am replacing the transformer today and connecting it back to an X-10 appliance switch (and ordering a UPB appliance switch for it).

 

[ano]

I have terrible coupling across phases in my house so have to use multiple phase couplers. As I understand it from Simply Automated, you can either use a single inverting phase coupler, or you can use multiple non-inverting couplers. I use three and they work pretty good. Now active phase couplers (split-phase) are available and they are fantastic. I bought the PCS one and it works great but note, they are not cheap, was $400+ There are some that claim that these active phase couplers (repeaters) don't work with 1st generation UPB switches, but this is not true, its only the return path that isn't sometimes amplified on 1st generation switches.

As for noise, any switching power supply should be suspect, but I've also had problems with Panasonic microwave ovens, plasma TVs, and with a very few models of CFL.

Also note, noise is really only a problem if your signal is marginal. Boost your signal and noise will not be an issue.

 

[nightwalker]

I replaced both of my Malibu transformers. The were horrible noise generators. They started off just fine but as they went on and got older the noise started appearing little by little until i was getting that same off/on scenario that Pete was. I'm glad they're finally gone.

 

[pete_c]

I went looking today for a small Malibu Transformer at the local big box HW stores in my area and noticed only Malibu transformers starting at $70.

Meanwhile I had already changed much of my LV lighting wiring to 12/10 guage so I'm thinking I can just reconnect to a zone off one of the commercial transformers (1000 watt one) for now (cabling is there) and convert this zone to LEDs to test with a smaller PS. I have started to purchase Landscape type 1 watt LED lamps.

I only saw the noise with the "lack" of signal one night. Checking the devices every night and haven't any more noise on the UPB lines. Just a lower signal on the opposite phase. I just got some HAI switches; while I still need to finish the second floor was going to install these on the opposite phase (main floor) with PCS switches right now.

As I understand it from Simply Automated, you can either use a single inverting phase coupler, or you can use multiple non-inverting couplers. I use three and they work pretty good

I purchased/installed a ZPCI-W and just noticed that its an inverting phase coupler. Where do I find non-inverting UPB phase couplers?

I called SA tech support a couple of days back with some questions relating to their USB PIM and they never returned my call.

Funny I scrambled the SA PIM's OS via my USB connection; such that I had to do a quick cold boot of it (so it didn't matter that they didn't return my call).

My last question to them was relating to being able to utilize the UPB PIM via USB Anywhere. They said it could be done only with custom software USB drivers.

It was odd though that the device was recognized; it just didn't work. The answer though kind of less than I had expected.

 

[Steve]

I have chronic noise and did not have luck with any of the passive couplers but the PCS Split Phase Repeater has been fantastic.

 

[ano]

I purchased/installed a ZPCI-W and just noticed that its an inverting phase coupler. Where do I find non-inverting UPB phase couplers?

At one time, Simply Automated sold both. The non-inverting one was a ZPC-W and the inverting one was ZPCI-W. Here is what their web site said:

The inverting phase couplers work very well when the power transformer is close, within 150 ft. Non-inverting phase couplers work well if the power transformer is at least 200 ft from the main breaker panel. The trial and error process begins when one phase coupler does not allow strong UPB signal levels (e.g. >9) throughout the house. If using non-inverting phase couplers adding additional phase couplers on each sub-panel often delivers a stronger signal. If additional phase couplers do not add sufficient signal strength sometimes a single phase coupler must be moved from panel to panel to find the location that provides the strongest signal levels throughout the house.

I'm not sure they still sell the non-inverting model. Then again, I'm not sure if Simply Automated is still around. They have maintained a pretty low profile. Their press releases seemed to have stopped in Nov. 2008 but the switches still seem to be coming from somewhere.

 

[pete_c]

Thanks Ano.

My step down transformer is adjacent to the corner of my lot / neighbors lot - guessing within or around 150 ft or less.

Got my HAI PIM back and put the SA PIM on the second phase and noticed the opposite signal strength. Very good on the main floor and less than 15 on the second floor.

 

[drozwood90]

Pete,

Those numbers look terrible. For this and my last house, I typically see over mid 40's. 45-48 is typical.

Do you have problems controlling the switches? In my house, it doesn't matter what I run, I don't seem to have any issues with anything (i.e. running the dishwasher didn't have an effect on my signal level).

--Dan