UPB Problem

[stew]

I installed a small test setup a few months ago to see how UPB performs. All went well so I decided to install a few more. Now when I run Upstart, I can connect to the PIM with no problem but the diagnostics report no signal and the noise bar is pegged at 30. I have tried a different PIM which didn't help. My phase coupler is wired into the breaker panel so I shut that off to see if something went south there but there was no change.

I also tried a different version of Upstart (running 4.8 now) which made no difference.

Any pointers to where I should look next? I only have 2 switches installed at this point, should I rip them out to see if these is a problem with one of the devices?

Thanks for any help!

Stew

 

[Steve]

Noise of 30 is not critical, I get around 48 out of my cooktop. I doubt its any of your UPB devices, it sounds like there is some other source of noise. But you should still see a signal regardless of the noise. You can run a comm test to each device to see what it reports. Have you added or changed any electronic devices recently that may explain the noise?

 

[LightenUP]

Most of the time it's a localized dimmer. Not neccesarily in the room your switches are in but localized in the panel. Typically the dimmer(s) is in the low setting.

The good news is devices are getting better through GENII protocal change that works much better. Simply Automated needs to be convinced of this, however you can combate the noise through a process of elimination. Go throught the breakers until hopefully you locate the circuit with the noise then maybe isolate it to a switch. Remember not to turn of the circuit you are testing from, you may be able to phase the offending circuit out of phase to attenuate the interferance. If you go through them but the noise never goes away then it may be an outside source, which then could screw things up for ya.

I hope this helps you.

 

[stew]

Thanks for the tips. The only electric that has been added is a pump for the sprinkler system and a UPS. I dropped the breaker on both of them with no change. I'll start cycling through breakers and see what happens.

Stew

 

[Steve]

If you isolate it to coming from outside your house check with your neighbors to see if they added anything recently.

 

[rfdesq]

There are some new filters from Pulseworx http://www.pulseworx.com/tools_.htm.

 

[MikeB]

Wow, that 15 amp filter looks big. Wonder why so large?

 

[stew]

Narrowed the source of the noise to my outside house lights. When I kill that breaker, noise goes to 0. Not sure what to do next to solve the problem, but at least I can program the new devices now. The house is only 6 months old, I suppose it could be one of the lights with a bad connection or something.

Thanks for the help.

Stew

Update: OK, I'm a dork. I installed a d-light christmas light controller what is causing the noise. When I popped it off the circuit, the noise dropped to 0. Thanks for all the help!

 

[MikeB]

You're not a dork. People plug things in all the time without thinking of the ramifications. In a perfect world, none of this crap would interfere. This is the price we pay for a non-hardwired automated lighting system!

 

[Steve]

Glad you found it. At least that should be small enough to easily filter if you need it plugged in.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Posts like this one sure make Z-Wave look attractive! I thought that the purpose of the UPB protocol was to be noise immune. This isn't any better than X-10 if you have to place filters in electrical devices, use couplers, etc...

I went through my entire house with a meter and tested the signal strength and noise issues with my X-10 system.

Once I isolated the offending electrical items and obtained an X-10 Pro coupler/repeater, my reliability greatly increased to now I rarely miss a signal.

Guess I'm having a hard time understanding this one... I wonder if people that switched over to UPB from X-10 would have first executed the same scrutiny and setup that I did (with their X-10 system) if they would have then changed their minds... I mean, I believe UPB is a quality product, just wondering if the expense is worth it...

 

[upstatemike]

Posts like this one sure make Z-Wave look attractive! I thought that the purpose of the UPB protocol was to be noise immune. This isn't any better than X-10 if you have to place filters in electrical devices, use couplers, etc...

I went through my entire house with a meter and tested the signal strength and noise issues with my X-10 system.

Once I isolated the offending electrical items and obtained an X-10 Pro coupler/repeater, my reliability greatly increased to now I rarely miss a signal.

Guess I'm having a hard time understanding this one... I wonder if people that switched over to UPB from X-10 would have first executed the same scrutiny and setup that I did (with their X-10 system) if they would have then changed their minds... I mean, I believe UPB is a quality product, just wondering if the expense is worth it...

Just because Z-Wave is not subject to power line noise does not mean it is noise immune. RF noise is a much tougher nut to crack because you can't put a filter on it and it likely will not even originate in your own house so you have very little control. I am also concerned that I see very few examples of 150+ Z-Wave switch installations so I am not convinced that we have seen good examples of Z-Wave really being put to a serious test.

I also don't understand how Z-Wave can be truly centrally managed because you have to visit each device to enroll and progam it... this is not practical in a large installation, especially if there are a lot of fairly inaccessible fixture modules involved. It seems like Homeseer has had to create a lot of custom devices for Z-Wave to make it practical to manage it centrally from their software.

I also think its fair to say that UPB at 40V can withstand a bit more noise than X-10 at 4V so there is some justification for upgrading... and Gen II switches have blue LEDs! How many X-10 switches are there with blue LEDs?

If you work to clean up your system and use an XTB-II as your X-10 power line interface, then you can probably argue that there is no true technical reason to migrate to UPB. I do not think you can make the argument however that if line noise in extreme cases can affect UPB then everyone should just use Z-Wave. At least not until Z-Wave proves itself a little more in larger installations to be as trouble free as people somehow imagine it will be.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Points well taken! I certainly can't argue with that logic.

I also don't have either Z-Wave or UPB so it's hard to discern how and if these problems I read about would even affect me in my home. I'm just trying to understand it all...

 

[MikeB]

Posts like this one sure make Z-Wave look attractive! I thought that the purpose of the UPB protocol was to be noise immune. This isn't any better than X-10 if you have to place filters in electrical devices, use couplers, etc...

Like UpstateMike said above, it's not like RF is immune to interference. If you've installed more than a couple WiFi wireless networks, I'm sure you've run into disconnection issues. I remember reading posts from a guy who's neighbor's wireless video cameras were screwing up his Z-Wave. At EHX the Intermatic guys weren't even able to demo switch linking for me, probably because of the RF activity going on at the show.

Also like UpstateMike said, at least with powerline devics you CAN filter. How would you filter RF from your home?

Both technologies have their strengths and weaknesses, but I don't think there's a real clear winner.

 

[nightwalker]

Lets all face it, nothing is going to give you 100% except a hardwired system. Weather you use X10, UPB, zwave or anything else it's going to be susceptible to interference. The real trick here is to install it correctly, giving it what it needs to perform. Weather it be repeaters, bridges, boosters, master remotes, whatever is important and too many people try to short cut things and then wonder why they get poor performance.

I'm in the middle of a X10 to UPB conversion and so far I'm thrilled with it's performance. X10 isn't really giving me any troubles but UPB is a bit more robust and I'm seeing the handwriting on the wall for X10. UPB does so a few more things than X10 and allows more on the powerline at once without crashes. Generally i find it be be far less susceptible to noise than my X10.

I have a lot of metal in my house and have such poor performance with wireless anything i didn't even give zwave a thought. Even in a perfect world there will be electrical noise and wireless interference. Depending on circumstances in your environment you have to decide which you think will work best for you.