upstart cannot see new devices or give me signal

[chrisdias]

I'm having a bunch of problems with my PIM and upstart...

1. upstart does not give me any signal or noise level data when I go to tools | UPB interface device | Signal and Noise Meter. I can connect just fine through my COM port (4) and I can connect to one of my dimmers and control it, etc. NO problem sending it commands through upstart.

2. when i put my second dimmer into setup mode, PC access does not recognize it as being in setup mode. I was able to get the first one to be found/recognized obvoiusly, but not this one. i can put the first one back into setup mode and PC access will see it in that mode.

i am fairly certain they are both on the same phase in the panel (both on the right side of the panel).

i reset the PM today (5/10/1 pattern) which got me out of a reading of very high noise on the line problem, which just showed up.

It seems like the PIM is really out of wack... anyone else ever run into this problem?

i dont know what to do next...

argh.

 

[chrisdias]

both dimmers are 35A00-1 upb 600 watt HAI branded dimmers...
communiction test with the one device shows signal at device as 79, noise at 2, and avg-nose at 2.
At powerline interface it is signal at 85, noise at 0, avg-noise at 0.

details of failure to find module in setup....

[UPStart 5.1 Build 18]
[Test for the PIM]
WR: ^R0A02F4
PR0A0102
[DATA Test for the PIM] 1.02
[Success]

[Test for noise at PIM]
[DATA Test for noise at PIM] 0 / 0 / 0
[Success]

[Find module in setup]
WR: Ctrl=0720 Net=00 Dest=FE Src=FF Cmd=00 /
PA T20 T11
T12 T23 T04 T05 T16 T37 T08 T29 T0A T0B T0C T0D T0E T0F T30 T31 T32 T23 T34 T35 T36 T37 T08 T09 T0A T0B T3C T1D T3E T0F N-0
DC: Ctrl=0720 Net=00 Dest=FE Src=ff Len=01 Cmd=00 /(NAK)
N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9
N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N14 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1
N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F
WR: Ctrl=0720 Net=00 Dest=FE Src=FF Cmd=00 /
PA T20 T11 T12 T23 T04 T05 T16 T37 T08 T29 T0A T0B T0C T0D T0E T0F T30 T31 T32 T23 T34 T35 T36 T37 T08 T09 T0A T0B T3C T1D T3E T0F N-0
DC: Ctrl=0720 Net=00 Dest=FE Src=ff Len=01 Cmd=00 /(NAK)
N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1
N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9
N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F N-0 N-1 N-2 N-3 N-4 N-5 N-6 N-7 N-8 N-9 N-A N-B N-C N-D N-E N-F
WR: Ctrl=0710 Net=00 Dest=FE Src=FF Cmd=0F /
PA T20 T11 T12 T23 T04 T05 T16 T37 T08 T19 T0A
T0B T0C T0D T0E T0F T30 T31 T32 T23 T34 T35 T36 T37 T08 T09 T3A T3B T3C T1D T3E T1F N-F
DC: Ctrl=0710 Net=00 Dest=FE Src=ff Len=01 Cmd=0f /(NAK)
[Failure]

 

[chrisdias]

i've added a third device and still ... upstart cannot see it in setup mode.

i can still see the one device that i've got on the network, control it, etc.

this is frustrating!

 

[chrisdias]

same problem when i try to "configure HLC device" in PC Access... i get a failure when trying to find something in setup mode.

i'm wondering if I've got something wired incorrectly on these two devices and i got luck on the first one i installed.

chris

 

[tmbrown97]

Two notes...

1. The reset is 5/10/2 (you listed 5/10/1) - on my USB CIM, for some reason I have to reset it just about every time I use it; and if doing multiple devices, I may have to reset more than once.

2. Have you tried moving your CIM to a different outlet? If you're on a desktop that can't be moved, how about an extension cord to another part of the house plugged into the CIM? That could eliminate any potential issues caused by being plugged into a UPS or some surge protectors.

Just food for thought - those are the things I'd try next.

 

[tenholde]

Just fyi, many panels do not have one phase on the left and the other phase on the right. They alternate down the panel on the same side.

tenholde

 

[fcwilt]

How many breaker panels? How many phase couplers?

I have 2 main panels, and 4 sub panels, one phase coupler with 50+ devices scattered around 9000+ sq ft and all work fine BUT the PIM is in an outlet right at the main panels. A PIM in my office cannot reliably see all devices on the other phase from the office outlet. The signal from the PIM in the office, of course, has to travel back to the main panel and then down the other phase and it just isn't strong enough to be consistent. The PIM at the main panel is (more or less) equally close to devices on both phases.

I had to experiment with inverting and non-inverting phase couplers, in different panels, to get reliable operation. I found that, in my setup, the inverting phase couplers made things worse. I tried couplers in each main panel but found that one was enough.

Good luck.

 

[tenholde]

The PIM at the main panel is (more or less) equally close to devices on both phases.

I do not think that a PIM located at the main panel is equally close to devices on both phases. The signal has to propagate all the way to the transformer that feeds the house and back to get to the opposite phase.

tenholde

 

[BryanE]

I'm having the same issue. All UPB devices are connected to the same outlet on a power strip without surge protection or filters (demo setup). What OS are you running? All of my machines are on Win7, so I have no way of testing Vista at the moment.

 

[BryanE]

I found a Vista notebook and that's not the problem.

Now, virtually every time I try to connect to the PIM I get some type of error. If it ever does connect, it can't find any device in setup mode.

If I load the original config file I can communicate with the UPB devices.... frustrating. Tried multiple PIM resets without luck.

 

[BryanE]

Well, my first experience with UPB gen 2 is not turning out to be a positive one. At this point I can only assume the PIM gave up the ghost. Now it will only read some information from the PIM some of the time but it will never properly connect. Each time I hit connect it gives a different reason why it can’t communicate. Sometimes it will read the firmware version, other times it won’t. Hammer anyone?

 

[ano]

How many breaker panels? How many phase couplers?

I have 2 main panels, and 4 sub panels, one phase coupler with 50+ devices scattered around 9000+ sq ft and all work fine BUT the PIM is in an outlet right at the main panels. A PIM in my office cannot reliably see all devices on the other phase from the office outlet. The signal from the PIM in the office, of course, has to travel back to the main panel and then down the other phase and it just isn't strong enough to be consistent. The PIM at the main panel is (more or less) equally close to devices on both phases.

I had to experiment with inverting and non-inverting phase couplers, in different panels, to get reliable operation. I found that, in my setup, the inverting phase couplers made things worse. I tried couplers in each main panel but found that one was enough.

Good luck.

You SHOULDN'T mix inverting and non-inverting. Also, you should ONLY use one non-inverting coupler per application BUT you can parallel multiple inverting couplers to increase signal. I use three at my house.

 

[Event5]

Well, my first experience with UPB gen 2 is not turning out to be a positive one. At this point I can only assume the PIM gave up the ghost. Now it will only read some information from the PIM some of the time but it will never properly connect. Each time I hit connect it gives a different reason why it can’t communicate. Sometimes it will read the firmware version, other times it won’t. Hammer anyone?

If a UPB device just doesn't want to work it may need a "factory" reset. This will often bring it back to life. Depending on the manufacture the reset is different. I know SA products require 5 taps... 10 taps... 2taps (or presses of the setup button) I have not needed this very often, but when I did, it worked great.

Dave

 

[BryanE]

Well, my first experience with UPB gen 2 is not turning out to be a positive one. At this point I can only assume the PIM gave up the ghost. Now it will only read some information from the PIM some of the time but it will never properly connect. Each time I hit connect it gives a different reason why it can’t communicate. Sometimes it will read the firmware version, other times it won’t. Hammer anyone?

If a UPB device just doesn't want to work it may need a "factory" reset. This will often bring it back to life. Depending on the manufacture the reset is different. I know SA products require 5 taps... 10 taps... 2taps (or presses of the setup button) I have not needed this very often, but when I did, it worked great.

Dave

Hi Dave,

I've already tried countless factory resets but nothing is bringing it back to life. I've even tried connecting to the PIM in a non-UPB environment, thinking another UPB device was causing the issue.

Has anyone ever had to replace a PIM?

 

[chrisdias]

the thing that frustrates me is that this thing all worked over the weekend just fine.

then, all of the sudden, it started acting poorly.

tonight i've moved the PIM to a different outlet. No noise and no signal registered. i can still turn the one switch i have connected on/off/dim.
i moved the PIM to a power strip on the same outlet, same results. i cannot see anything in setup mode.

move the PIM to another power strip on another outlet. No noise and no signal registered. Again, i can still control the lights with this setup, but cannot see anythign in setup mode.

moved the PIM back to the original outlet giving me trouble. Severe noise and sometimes Excellenet signal. No idea why i get it on one and not the other, maybe they are on different phases (i dont have a phase coupler).

i increased the timeout and retry count in upstart to somethign like 10x at 10000 timeout. i was able to pick up one of the new dimmers in setup mode and almost get it programmed, but it would time out eventually.

when i first set this up about a month or 2 ago, i had very little noise and a consistently strong signal and no problems. we have not had any electrical work done at all since then. I ran around the house this weekend and powered off everything, including everything on the panel. same issue.

i guess i'll try yet another extension cord on a "clean" outlet. i still dont understand why i dont get a signal on some of the outlets or through a power strip.

next questions:

- will a phase coupler help
- what will my lighting options be if i cant do UPB? I cannot rewire all my outlets, so am I left with ZWave? Do i get good control from an OmniPro II?

thanks,
(thinking of changing my name to "argh") Chris