What is wrong with CQC?

[dgage]

LarrylLixhttp://cocoontech.com/forums/user/26515-larryllix/ - Sounds like your brain hasn't thawed out from that Canadian Winter yet.   And the reason you couldn't start your car is you forgot to plug it in...the original plugin non-hybrid.   Reminds me of my time in Alaska...bad memories of the cold.

 

[LarrylLix]

Canada cold? Nahhh... I am currently supporting the failing economy in the US of A. You know where everything costs double for tourists?
 
But my A/C stops everytime I type  response post and it's getting hotter in here each keystroke.

 

[ChrisCicc]

  I use CQC so I did not vote in your poll, I think the PC based software Automation market is a dying market. I believe that the younger generations use traditional computers far less and that phones and tablets meet their needs. I think to survive in this space a company needs to build home automation appliances that connect to everything they control as painlessly as possible. I would like to see a poll of the average age of users of software programs like CQC, I am about a month and a half away from turning 55.

 
You're still thinking in the desktop-PC-or-bust paradigm. Every home automation system is software based, and every controller is a computer. 
 

This is not to say that CQC won't, in a round about way, compete in the lower end, hub based world. Now that Windows 10 is almost being given away, and it's on things like the Pi2 and others, some folks have expressed interest in using it (in a very fixed function way) as the engine in a hub type product. It wouldn't have been practical before, where for cost reasons it would have been Linux or nothing. But now it's reached a point where, with Windows 10, CQC could be the engine behind various things which only expose a small, focused portion of its functionality.

 
We just launched our first hub, the CastleHUB, today on Kickstarter. Like CQC, CastleOS runs on Windows PC or server. People didn't want to use PCs much anymore, so we've launched a low power (just 7 watts) Windows 8.1/10 based hub. Like I mention above, "PC" is a term without meaning anymore. Everything is a PC, including RasPi and Nest thermostats. 

 

[pete_c]

Noticing we are at: The price is too high (8 votes [25.81%]) right.
 
This is a great discussion.

 

[Waynedb]

 
You're still thinking in the desktop-PC-or-bust paradigm. Every home automation system is software based, and every controller is a computer. 
 

 
We just launched our first hub, the CastleHUB, today on Kickstarter. Like CQC, CastleOS runs on Windows PC or server. People didn't want to use PCs much anymore, so we've launched a low power (just 7 watts) Windows 8.1/10 based hub. Like I mention above, "PC" is a term without meaning anymore. Everything is a PC, including RasPi and Nest thermostats. 

I said traditional PCs are being used less by the younger generation, a full blown multi-purpose operating system like windows on a desktop or a server. I have run scaled down Operating systems on lots of devices using both Linux and locked down versions of Windows. I don't think many younger people will setup a Windows PC to run a Home automation server, I on the other hand grew up on desktop computers and have been running several servers for many, many years. My next Home Automation project f I leave CQC will not be running Windows.

 

[ChrisCicc]

I said traditional PCs are being used less by the younger generation, a full blown multi-purpose operating system like windows on a desktop or a server. I have run scaled down Operating systems on lots of devices using both Linux and locked down versions of Windows. I don't think many younger people will setup a Windows PC to run a Home automation server, I on the other hand grew up on desktop computers and have been running several servers for many, many years. My next Home Automation project f I leave CQC will not be running Windows.

 
I think you missed my point  :huh:

 

[Waynedb]

 No, I think you read into what I wrote what you wanted to believe. I made a point about CQC and the younger generation. You preceded to tell me everything is a PC like I am some kind of idiot and then told me about your Hub on Kickstarter.
 
I can show you where I said back in 2010 that I wished Dean would sell a small form factor PC running Win XPe, and I had the same reason back then as now.

 

[ano]

Noticing we are at: The price is too high (8 votes [25.81%]) right.
 
This is a great discussion.

Price too high is an interesting one, because it means these people likely didn't get past the price to even try CQC. Yes, I know there is a free trial, but people seldom waste time testing something they know they won't buy.  Then the next question, how they even know the price is too high because its hard to even understand the price until you use CQC. Drivers, clients components.  Hmmm... And why are there so many levels?  Why dont you have maybe three. Consumer starter, consumer pro, and super duper. Unobtainium isn't even a real thing. :wacko:

 

[ChrisCicc]

Not what I was referring to...
 
CastleOS was designed for Windows Embedded, likely just as CQC was. When we started, there was no such thing as an inexpensive small form factor PC without an embedded OS. Now, the license cost for the full Windows vs the Embedded Windows is the same, which combined with the Intel NUC generation hardware, creates a very compelling, powerful, and low-cost Hub. Not to mention Windows can run on light switches and thermostats in the wall. Everything is a PC today, because hardware with enough horsepower has shrunk in both cost and size thanks to cell phones and tablets. It's a whole new ballgame and there is a reason Microsoft dropped the cost and merged all versions of Windows into a combined entity. 
 
You want a HUB with Linux instead? Go right ahead. It's still running the same "PC" hardware...

 

[dgage]

I've held back on commenting as I wasn't sure how I wanted to respond.
 
I went with not enough documentation as the complexity options weren't worded how I though of them but complexity is a factor in my use too.  To me, there seems to be an initial hump of knowledge learning that needs to be overcome to become proficient with CQC.  I haven't done a lot with graphical interfaces but even watching some of the videos and hanging out on the CQC forum, it still seems...complex.  Unlike a lot of things where I can just hang out and learn through osmosis, that hasn't been the case FOR ME with CQC.  And when I did work on some back end items for my lighting, I was able to come get answers, more from the forum than the documentation.  What I felt was and is missing is larger, well-documented examples, think Microsoft Technet.  Often you have to hunt in the forum and then I just end up posting to get help.  And after my initial back-end work to automate some lighting, I didn't (need to) work with CQC for over 6 months and when I went to do something again, I had completely forgot the scripting language again.
 
To me CQC seems like it would be better suited to commerical implementors than DIYers.  Then again, part of this thought is that I have changed...when I was younger, I would tear into things and tinker and tinker and tinker.  Now, time is precious and I just want things to work and I have limited time to devote to playing and learning.  Funny, now that I have the money to really put into something expensive like home automation, I don't have the time or inclination to put in the effort required.  I'm not sure what law that is called but I'm sure there's some sort of Murphy's Law type name for that ironic situation.
 
Regarding the hardware, CQC, specifically the RadioRa2 driver, hasn't been 100% reliable for me.  I think my periodic issues have put a damper on me extending CQC within my home such that I am only using the RadioRa2 driver for my instance of CQC.  I don't like the fact that the HAI OmniPro and Elk seem to be based on dinosaur technology but those are supposedly rock solid.  For things like lighting, I could see myself reverting to one of those boxes and using CQC for higher level functionality.  Then again, if I were to do that, I'm not sure I'd continue using CQC since my use of Sonos is with an iPad app or Jriver for home audio and Jriver for home video. 
 
Which brings me to another area of concern...mobile.  I haven't seen much said about CQC's use on phones lately such as my Windows Mobile 8.1 phone or my iPad.  How easy is it to implement CQC on those two platforms as well as to make it available within the house as well as away (securely)?
 
What prompted me to buy CQC several years ago was Dean's dedication to CQC and that has been consistent and impressive.  Whichever direction Dean takes CQC, I wish him nothing but the absolute greatest success.
 
David

 

[Dean Roddey]

Price too high is an interesting one, because it means these people likely didn't get past the price to even try CQC. Yes, I know there is a free trial, but people seldom waste time testing something they know they won't buy.  Then the next question, how they even know the price is too high because its hard to even understand the price until you use CQC. Drivers, clients components.  Hmmm... And why are there so many levels?  Why dont you have maybe three. Consumer starter, consumer pro, and super duper. Unobtainium is even a real thing.

 
Pricing is a difficult thing. You have to remember that we aren't just dealing with the DIY market. It becomes very difficult to come up with a pricing scheme that will work for both individual users and pros. You can't afford to sell pro systems for very little money since that's where the actual money is, but you can't sell to individuals for less that you sell to the pros (because their customers will complain that they can buy it for less.) We use to have a pro price and a DIY price (which was much lower.) But got endless complaints about that, because pros expect to get things for less than individuals, because they are buying 'wholesale'.
 
Our tiered system is an attempt to deal with that, by creating a more layered system, in which DIYers can get in for a reasonable price, while the larger systems that pros tend to use can still bring in enough revenues (for us and the pros) to be practical.
 
Ultimately, no matter what system you come up with, someone will think its stupid or a rip off or some such thing. But this is the best we can think of so far.

 

[Dean Roddey]

Regarding the hardware, CQC, specifically the RadioRa2 driver, hasn't been 100% reliable for me.  I think my periodic issues have put a damper on me extending CQC within my home such that I am only using the RadioRa2 driver for my instance of CQC.  I don't like the fact that the HAI OmniPro and Elk seem to be based on dinosaur technology but those are supposedly rock solid.  For things like lighting, I could see myself reverting to one of those boxes and using CQC for higher level functionality.  Then again, if I were to do that, I'm not sure I'd continue using CQC since my use of Sonos is with an iPad app or Jriver for home audio and Jriver for home video. 

 
I think that we finally have figured that out. Sometimes it can be tough to deal with the sporadic issues that come up once in a while. It looks like the issue with RA2 is that it doesn't by default send out async notifications when things change. The driver has to tell it to do that. But, it looks like if the RA2 repeater cycle due to a quick power outage, it can happen so quickly that the driver never actually loses the socket connection, but the repeater has in fact reset it self.
 
So we are just going to have to make the driver more paranoid basically. Normally it shouldn't be possible for such a thing to happen, but of course this is networking where you probably never should say never.
 
Definitely it would be a good thing to keep the RA2 repeater on a UPS to avoid any such kind of weirdness to begin with, but it should be possible to make the driver obsessive enough to deal with this unusual situation.

 

[Dean Roddey]

Oh the PC hardware thing, yeh, basically they are all PCs now, more or less. They are just put into a box with a manufacturer's name on it and some bespoke hardware in some cases. C4 is a Linux box, probably a lot (all?) of these new hubs type devices are. But Win10 will finally at least somewhat change that balance I think. And I think that the exceptionally good development tools available for Windows makes a good argument for using it as a platform. But that would probably seldom in the past won out against the economics of the per-unit cost of Windows. The low price of Win10 should allow for both, and the quality of the dev tools shouldn't be underestimated, IMO.
 
Once nice thing about it might be the ability to have a low cost embedded device that can still have a very rich GUI, and not have to use a Web Browser.

 

[Waynedb]

Not what I was referring to...
 
CastleOS was designed for Windows Embedded, likely just as CQC was. When we started, there was no such thing as an inexpensive small form factor PC without an embedded OS..

I don' t know when you started but the first I heard of you was back in 2013, low cost hardware that could run an embedded OS or a full blown OS has been around for many years before the NUC showed up.

This is Dean's CQC thread and by the way you plugging your Kickstarter Hub in his thread was not cool.

 

[ChrisCicc]

I don' t know when you started but the first I heard of you was back in 2013, low cost hardware that could run an embedded OS or a full blown OS has been around for many years before the NUC showed up.

This is Dean's CQC thread and by the way you plugging your Kickstarter Hub in his thread was not cool.

 
In fairness, that was a message to Dean, not you. He asked what he needs to do differently. I think he needs to get off traditional Windows PCs, which is exactly what we had to do.
 
I'm sorry, but I don't think you aware of the costs of bringing hardware devices like this to market. It wasn't even possible two years ago, never mind when we started development in 2011.