Why is 'Elk On-Line Training ' Pinned at the top? Help with a new build and type of wiring needed?

[Pcarfan]

Why is this a pinned topic, when none of the links work?
 
I am new to elk m1 gold, and trying to get info. Everything up there is dead links. There are some training videos at the elkproducts.com site, but I am an extreme novice and even the basic training is above my skill level.
 
I am building a house and just curious what type of wiring I will have to have in place for a future elk security system?
 
It looks like the locations where each control box will be could have a CAT5 cable run, is this correct? Will each sensor on doors and windows need hard wiring? If it does what type? (it's hard to believe each window and door will need wiring). Will these wires then in turn be connected to the circuit box? how exactly are these wires connected to the circuit board? Can wireless sensors somehow communicate to this device.
 
P.S: I will be using Insteon sensors. Could those be controlled wireless?
 
Any help is greatly appreciated

 

[Pcarfan]

Never mind. The wiring is common for all security systems and it looks like I can get the answers on the type of wiring.

 

[Pcarfan]

Also I found this site with working videos
 
II tried to attach a link, it wont allow me to

 

[apostolakisl]

If you are using eol resistors, then all systems don't use the same wiring.
 
Elk uses 2200 ohm resistors, others use different.
 
For elk at least, you should home run cat5 or 6 wire to all of your proposed keypad locations
 
You don't have to hard wire all of your doors and windows.  You could do wireless, but if the walls are open, it is better to hard wire.  It is cheaper (but is more work). Wireless needs new batteries and why deal with potential rf problems when you don't have to.  Also, there are more choices in wired ones and mostly they are smaller.

 

[Pcarfan]

If you are using eol resistors, then all systems don't use the same wiring.
 
Elk uses 2200 ohm resistors, others use different.
 
For elk at least, you should home run cat5 or 6 wire to all of your proposed keypad locations
 
You don't have to hard wire all of your doors and windows.  You could do wireless, but if the walls are open, it is better to hard wire.  It is cheaper (but is more work). Wireless needs new batteries and why deal with potential rf problems when you don't have to.  Also, there are more choices in wired ones and mostly they are smaller.

Thank you. So there is wiring for all potential sensor locations (4 wire type?, I will mention 2200 ohm wires to the electrician) Cat6 to all potential keypad locations.

It looks like I need a phone line close to the circuit board

I see all potential smoke detector locations will need hardwiring, same type as other sensors?



WHAT KING OF OUTPUT WIRING WOULD I NEED IN PLACE? ( I will like to have all potential outputs wired).

-I will need a couple of outdoor sirens and a couple of strobe lights
-indoor two way listen in interface
-indoor speaker
-indoor siren


I would like to have an outdoor temperature probes and two to three indoor temperature probes too. I guess I would need to wire for these? How about carbon monoxide, heat, water leak attached to a main water shut off valve etc? I guess each of these locations will need separate wiring? If so the same types as the sensor? 4 wire???

 

[apostolakisl]

2200 ohm is not a type of wire, it is a resistor that you splice on to the wire at the end of the line.  It is attached to the furthest contactor in the series.  It is not part of the rough wiring, it is part of the finish wiring when you install the contactors.
 
You only need 4 wires for powered devices like motion detectors.
 
Smokes can be 2 or 4 wire, I used 4 wire.  You need smoke detector wire and needs to be done per local code.
 
The Elk installation manual tells you what you need for all of these things.  http://www.smarthome.com/manuals/12838install.pdf
 
Water detectors come in powered and unpowered versions.  So two or four wires, your choice.  I used unpowered ones and they totally work as my cleaning lady will vouch for.  http://www.securitystoreusa.com/category-s/1820.htm  I put one under pretty much everything that uses water (all toilets, sinks, dishwashers, refrigerators, tubs, etc)
 
I put in an Elk water shut off valve on the main line.  It is rock solid, but pricey.
 
Elk makes temp probes.  They are a bit pricey in my opinion.

 

[Pcarfan]

2200 ohm is not a type of wire, it is a resistor that you splice on to the wire at the end of the line.  It is attached to the furthest contactor in the series.  It is not part of the rough wiring, it is part of the finish wiring when you install the contactors.
 
You only need 4 wires for powered devices like motion detectors.
 
Smokes can be 2 or 4 wire, I used 4 wire.  You need smoke detector wire and needs to be done per local code.
 
The Elk installation manual tells you what you need for all of these things.  http://www.smarthome.com/manuals/12838install.pdf
 
Water detectors come in powered and unpowered versions.  So two or four wires, your choice.  I used unpowered ones and they totally work as my cleaning lady will vouch for.  http://www.securitystoreusa.com/category-s/1820.htm  I put one under pretty much everything that uses water (all toilets, sinks, dishwashers, refrigerators, tubs, etc)
 
I put in an Elk water shut off valve on the main line.  It is rock solid, but pricey.
 
Elk makes temp probes.  They are a bit pricey in my opinion.

Thank you.

I had looked through the manual. On page 6 it does say the smoke detector wire have to be approved by the authority. Below it discusses 4 wire smoke detectors but I couldn't find the specific type of wire. Then on page 10, under + SAUX where the four wire smoke detectors would be hooked up, it again doesn't mention the type of wire. Even for +VAUX where motion detector and glass breaks are connected, it again doesn't specify the type of wire.

 
I have to check the insteon water leak and main valve closure assembly and compare.

I will have insteon automation controlled with ISY 994i and will get the elk for security. Still working on what will do what when functions overlap between ISY and elk

 

[apostolakisl]

smoke wire  http://www.homesecuritystore.com/c-169-fire-wire.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=smoke+detector+wire&utm_campaign=wire+%26+tools
 
this is more of a code issue than an elk spec.  that is why they say follow code only.
 
I use ISY for anything that is not security related as far as programs.  It's easier to program, easier to edit, easier to organize, easier to access, and has a lot more memory

 

[Pcarfan]

smoke wire  http://www.homesecuritystore.com/c-169-fire-wire.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=smoke+detector+wire&utm_campaign=wire+%26+tools
 
this is more of a code issue than an elk spec.  that is why they say follow code only.
 
I use ISY for anything that is not security related as far as programs.  It's easier to program, easier to edit, easier to organize, easier to access, and has a lot more memory

 
When ever there are overlaps in function between ISY/Insteon and Elk, I am planning to have ISY handle it. Thank you for mentioning that, as I was contemplating what to do.
 
I am currently trying out how to control the Elk water shutoff valve. (http://www.smarthome.com/1284/Elk-WSV-Water-Shutoff-Valve/p.aspx )
 
I can do it with ISY and Insteon. The Shot off valve will be hooked to the Insteon I/O linc (http://www.smarthome.com/2450/IOLinc-INSTEON-Low-Voltage-Contact-Closure-Interface-1-In-1-Out-/p.aspx) and that will be plugged into a socket. Then I will have RF only Insteon Leak sensors (http://www.smarthome.com/2852-222/INSTEON-Leak-Sensor/p.aspx). I think I should be able to Install both the I/O linc and the water leak sensor into ISY and control them. Hoping Many leak sensors can be installed and tripping any one of those RF only leak sensors will trigger the ONE I/O linc via ISY-994i

 

[BLH]

You will need a 12 volt 1 amp power source for the ELK water valves power.
You should be able to have more than one Insteon Water Leak Sensor control the valve through the iSY controller.

 

[tmbrown97]

For keypad locations, I also like to have an 18/4 - it gives some extra flexibility; mainly each keypad if you use a KP2 can have an SP12 speaker behind it, but the speaker needs separate wiring - I like these because they allow the alarm sounds to come from the alarm interface where you're interacting with the system, not from some centralized speaker.  If you don't have enough keypads to get good sound coverage, you can also add more of them in discreet locations around the house - up to 8 without any special wiring at all.  I like keypads near each main entrance and in the master bedroom which provides pretty good coverage.
 
For wired/wireless, ALWAYS go wired if you have the choice - $2/sensor vs. $35 is a big difference, along with faster response times (good for automation), no battery hassles, better reliability, etc.
 
I use UPB and not insteon but I'm not sure how much that matters... if there's a way to do what I want via the Elk, I do it there first - then I go external...  If there's an Elk version of something, I'd bet it's going to be more reliable than an Insteon version of the same thing...  that said, the rules/programming space in the Elk is more limited than that of the ISY so for non-critical stuff, it does sound easier to put things there... but for things like water shutoff, I'd go with elk-controlled all the way.  What does the ISY do for battery backup?  The elk can run for a week off its battery...

 

[apostolakisl]

work2play is right.  I would run your water valve off of the elk relays, not Insteon.  It is cheaper, and it is bullet proof.  Since the walls are open, it is very easy to pull the wires.  You just need a 4 conductor wire like you would use for a motion detector.

 

[BLH]

No power, no Insteon. There is no battery back up for Insteon AC powerd modules.

 

[Pcarfan]

For keypad locations, I also like to have an 18/4 - it gives some extra flexibility; mainly each keypad if you use a KP2 can have an SP12 speaker behind it, but the speaker needs separate wiring - I like these because they allow the alarm sounds to come from the alarm interface where you're interacting with the system, not from some centralized speaker.  If you don't have enough keypads to get good sound coverage, you can also add more of them in discreet locations around the house - up to 8 without any special wiring at all.  I like keypads near each main entrance and in the master bedroom which provides pretty good coverage.
 
For wired/wireless, ALWAYS go wired if you have the choice - $2/sensor vs. $35 is a big difference, along with faster response times (good for automation), no battery hassles, better reliability, etc.
 
I use UPB and not insteon but I'm not sure how much that matters... if there's a way to do what I want via the Elk, I do it there first - then I go external...  If there's an Elk version of something, I'd bet it's going to be more reliable than an Insteon version of the same thing...  that said, the rules/programming space in the Elk is more limited than that of the ISY so for non-critical stuff, it does sound easier to put things there... but for things like water shutoff, I'd go with elk-controlled all the way.  What does the ISY do for battery backup?  The elk can run for a week off its battery...

 
 

work2play is right.  I would run your water valve off of the elk relays, not Insteon.  It is cheaper, and it is bullet proof.  Since the walls are open, it is very easy to pull the wires.  You just need a 4 conductor wire like you would use for a motion detector.

 
What is 18/4? is it 18 gauge 4 wire?
 
I am hoping to use ELK-M1KPNAV keypad. Is that good? Can I use this exclusively or do I have to have KP2 in the system?
 
Why would I need more keypads for better sound coverage? When I am interacting with the system, most of it will be done with a PC. Would the keypad be used for much more than arming and disarming? even if it does, while I am interacting with the keypad, wouldn't I be next to the keypad to hear the sounds. Why would I need more sound coverage? Sorry for the newbie questions. (I will be using echo speakers in the house)
 
 
I am thinking of adding two keypads for the front two entrances. Master bed is very close to one of the entrances, so I don't see a need for another there? I wouldn't leave or enter home for good from the walkout basement so wouldn't need it there either, no? unless this sound coverage is critical.
I am actually planning to run CAT 6 wiring to each keypad location. I will also have 'two-way wireless transceiver' for any wireless stuff that may come up later. I will get the ELK-M1DBH data bus hub to connect them to the M1 control panel. The two keypads and the wireless transceiver will all be connected to the hub with CAT6 cables. (I am planning to place the wireless transceiver inside a closet under the stairs where there would be no electrical equipment to minimize interference - away from my electronic room where the Mk1 and all the other numerous home automation A/V etc equipment will be). This data bus hub will connected to the RS-485 data bus on the Mk1 circuit board and terminated with a termination plug on the data bus.
 
DOES THIS SOUND CORRECT? OR AM I MISSING SOMETHING?
　
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I read the manual, and I still don't understand what's meant by " The two-way wireless transceiver must be enrolled as the first zone expander (address #2) on the M1 control data bus"? if the wireless transceiver is attached to the data bus hub along with the keypads and the hub in turn is attached to the M1 control board, how do I just send the wireless transceiver to address #2?
What is address #2 anyways? I don't even know where address #2 is?
Any help in this regard is appreciated.
　
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Good point about battery back up. I will use Elk for the shut off valve and wired when ever I can. It's just that, with just the initial look I've had, programming ISY seems to be easier than ELK (granted I really haven't looked into Elk programming in any detail yet). I am just conceptualizing the whole setup, so that I can ask my contractors to get it all wired as needed.
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Does Elk have there own water leak sensor or will this tie into Insteon water leak? (from what I read Elk and Insteon work very well together as in being "fully" compatible)
 
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Problem with Elk is, if I get into trouble Elk would not render assistance to the consumer, so I could be stuck

 

[Pcarfan]

You will need a 12 volt 1 amp power source for the ELK water valves power.
You should be able to have more than one Insteon Water Leak Sensor control the valve through the iSY controller.

Thank you. The Insteon I/O linc should provide that power....but I am now leaning towards hardwiring it to Elk. But it is true, if the power goes out Insteon and ISY will be out.