Wiring these windows

[BraveSirRobbin]

USM makes an excellent point!

Todd: I was more concerned about kids playing around in the yard, and adults if mounted high. I just cringed about a kid staring into it wondering what it was...

 

[beelzerob]

Well, I ordered a small selection of Tane sensors, and 50 of those small magnets...so that will give me something to experiment with out on the windows. Hopefully that magnet can pull the switch from a decent distance (3 lbs pull force, ya...but from how far?).

 

[SnyperBob]

Well, I ordered a small selection of Tane sensors, and 50 of those small magnets...so that will give me something to experiment with out on the windows. Hopefully that magnet can pull the switch from a decent distance (3 lbs pull force, ya...but from how far?).

How far, is a good question. I think that's why dudeman said he had to glue two or three together for large gaps.

 

[Photon]

Now that laser pointers are so cheap you even find them at the dollar store, you would think they could be incorporated into a break-the-beam detector with a photo transistor at the other end to cover a long range, like the length of the house, for pretty cheap. Some company should do that so I don't have to put my hobby hat on and experiment.

I was actually thinking of doing this, but later reconsidered as I wasn't satisified that I could mount the beam at a safe level for adults, kids and pets.

You guys are into "narrow thinking" security mode here. To me, one of the biggest values of window sensors is going to be HA reminders that a window was left open. Can't do that with beams or screens... don't get so security focused that you forget the big picture!

I look at the window magnets as being mostly for my benefit when I go to arm the system. They are there to tell me the windows are closed. If I could think of an easy way to determine the windows are locked, I would skip the magnetic sensors that report they are closed. The reed switches are too vulnerable to being bypassed with a magnet on the outside of the window after locating my magnet with a cheap compass, but I can't imagine how a burgler would get the windows to slide open or why he would try; it is just much easier to kick in a door or break a window. I plan to rely primarily on the glass breaks and PIRs for security, but if we are home I'd like to know about someone's presence near our house BEFORE they get inside.

If I choose to depend on magnetic switches for security, I'll be using Magnasphere technology instead of reed switches. http://www.magnasphere.com/

 

[beelzerob]

Well, to be honest, 95% of me wiring these windows is purely for entertainment value, not security. The entire reason we moved to PA from AZ is because of crime (and lots of other reasons too, but that was the one that finally made us serious). There simply isn't any here.

The bulk of my security system will probably involve something with 4 legs and a tail, or something with a trigger.

 

[beelzerob]

Got the magnets. Geez, these things are small! Strong too..it was hard to remove 1 from the stack. Now I just have to wait for the reed switches from tselectronic.com. Haven't gotten my shipped message yet..... (ordered Friday).

 

[hucker]

Been busy with other stuff lately. The little magnets are good for about 3/4 the gap of the ones that come with the reed switch. If you stack a couple it was about the same as the stock sensor. In only one location did I have to stack two and that wasn't for the gap but because I located my hole poorly and had an axial mis alignment. 2 magnets did the trick, there was room for atleast 5!

Mounting direction doesn't matter, internally the reed seems to trigger if it is pushed or pulled.

One thing that you will discover quickly is that you should be careful with the magnets, they break easily as they are very brittle. Don't 'play' with them too much!

 

[hucker]

Photon:

First off I think magnetic switches are most useful in ensuring that all of the doors and windows are shut when arming and for HA purposes. I just love that I can turn on my back porch light by opening the door, that is cool . If you are willing to spend 5x for the magnasphere's then go for it.

I think the economical way to design a security system is with multiple technologies:

0) Good locks/jams etc
1) magnetic position sensors on doors windows
2) glass break sensors in key areas
3) PIR/microwave sensors in key traffic areas

This layered approach makes it much more difficult to bypass and case, especially if the GB/PIR LED's are obscured. For some the magnasphere cost won't matter for others the cost amounts hundreds of dollars saved or upgrade hardware elsewhere.

 

[SnyperBob]

Been busy with other stuff lately. The little magnets are good for about 3/4 the gap of the ones that come with the reed switch. If you stack a couple it was about the same as the stock sensor. In only one location did I have to stack two and that wasn't for the gap but because I located my hole poorly and had an axial mis alignment. 2 magnets did the trick, there was room for atleast 5!

Mounting direction doesn't matter, internally the reed seems to trigger if it is pushed or pulled.

One thing that you will discover quickly is that you should be careful with the magnets, they break easily as they are very brittle. Don't 'play' with them too much!

Thanks for the info, I am going to order some of these as well. It looks like Rob got his pretty quick

 

[beelzerob]

Thanks for the info, I am going to order some of these as well. It looks like Rob got his pretty quick

Ya, ridiculously so. I don't know where they're based out of, but I ordered them at midnight on Friday and got them Monday morning. I wish they were all like that.

 

[Photon]

Hucker said "I think the economical way to design a security system is with multiple technologies:
0) Good locks/jams etc
1) magnetic position sensors on doors windows
2) glass break sensors in key areas
3) PIR/microwave sensors in key traffic areas"

I agree, Hucker. I began my upgrades by installing a deadbolt in my walkout lower level. I think the lower level would be the preferred point of intrusion since we have 60 acres of nature preserve behind the house, and neighbors can't see back there. I couldn't believe how flimsy the jamb is. The door is steel, but the jamb is a made from a relative of balsa wood. I used three-inch screws to install the hardened steel reinforcement plate that came with the deadbolt, and now I think the door provides at least as much resistance as the vinyl-framed windows, which still isn't very much. I also bought another reinforcer from MAG http://www.magsecurity.com/products.aspx?id=77&mid=17 which appears pretty substantial. The reason I bought this device is because the pocket is much taller than my deadbolt, and I'll be experimenting with a microswitch and a reed switch and magnet combination to see if I can assemble something that will tell the Elk that the bolt is set or not.

Let me credit Vaughn (ver0776) with the idea of using a plunger switch, the suggestion from where I decided to try a microswitch. I like the idea of the plunger switch, but I have another door that has side lites, and there is only about 1" of wood separating them. I'd like to devise one solution that I can then use for all my exterior doors.

I think Hucker's points 0&1 will keep honest people honest, and will be useful for automation. I'll depend more on his points 2&3 for actual security.

 

[beelzerob]

2) The 'dumb' end of the sensor is just a magnet. Why on earth it needs to be 3/4 long is something I don't get!!!

Well, I have your answer. It's long because almost the entire thing is a magnet! I broke one open, and inside was a single solid over 1/2" magnet.

I finally got my magnetic switches so I could test them on the windows.

I got the kind without a pigtail, which is what I REALLY want to use because I don't want a splice in the walls, no matter HOW good I make it. I got the kind with the pigtail, but with the "rare earth" magnet, which doesn't require any drilling into the sash (though it's mean to be screwed in). And I got the tiny surface contact ones.

I also got 50 of the tiny magnets, one if which is shown for comparison (1/4" dia, 1/32" thick).

I did some very ROUGH measurements of how big of a gap you could have between magnet and sensor and have it still work. That's a concern for me, as I feel that to wire the windows right, there is going to be a gap somewhere of some size. Here's what I came up with:

No pigtail:
Original magnet: Just over 5/8"
With 1 tiny magnet: 1/8"
With 2 tiny magnets: 2/8"

Pigtail/Rare Earth:
Original magnet: Just under 5/8"
With 1 tiny magnet: 1/8"
With 2 tiny magnets: 2/8"

Surface contact:
Original magnet: 1/2"
With 1 tiny magnet: 1/8"
With 2 tiny magnets: 2/8"

Some interesting note:
1) When I cut out the magnet from the plastic, and again checked the distance, you actually gained some gap (little less than 1/8"). Probably that's where the magnet was before, but this time without the plastic in front pushing the distance back. So, to have a bigger gap and to not have to drill so far into the sash, you're better off removing the magnet from the plastic and burying it directly, with some glue.
2) The small surface mount sensor (and it is indeed small) gained 1/8" in the gap when the magnet came in towards the edge, instead of straight towards the center. Must just be how the switch is oriented or wired.
3) It took about 3/8" in tiny magnets to equal the pulling power of the 1/2" magnet. So they are indeed stronger...but not by much.

I was impressed with the rare earth magnet, and I think it is going to be my choice. It was just as strong as the plastic shielded one, but wouldn't require me to drill a huge deep hole in my sash. I can handle putting a small screw in the sash. Also, the rare earth magnet that came with the switch is definitely stronger than the same thickness in tiny magnets.

I also was very pleased with the pigtail-less switch. It was very easy to insert and tighten the wires.

So, here's what I want. I want the sensor without the pigtail and the rare earth magnet instead of the plastic-enclosed magnet. The problem is....they don't come as a set that way. It looks like I'm going to have to order 2 reed switches for every one I need. Then I'll take the sensor from one and the magnet from the other....and then package the other sensor and magnet and I guess ebay them. Shame I can't just find what I need as-is.

 

[SnyperBob]

Hey hey,

It's been a few days since I checked this thread. Your very last paragraph, you typed that you want a sensor without pigtail and rare earth magnet. By rare earth magnet, are you talking about the ones you ordered from here:

http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D401

I finally took some time yesterday to wire up the security in my lower level. Took half a day, but I have all the wiring in place for one level of the house. I'm pretty much going to just secure the ground-level and and basement of the house initially. I'll probably just use a few key wireless sensors in the upstairs, I'm not sure.

Anyway, are three methods overkill for every room with a window? ie....Wired for window sensors, wired for glassbreaks, and wired for motion. In every single room. Is that overkill, or what you did/are doing?

Thanks
- B

 

[SnyperBob]

Oh, thanks for the info btw

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Anyway, are three methods overkill for every room with a window? ie....Wired for window sensors, wired for glassbreaks, and wired for motion. In every single room. Is that overkill...

I don't know about 'overkill' but I would at least provide wiring for all of those sensors. You can just wire them into a mudring and place a blank cover over it after drywall is in place.

Not only did I do this for my friend's house, but we also have two wiring runs of four conductor cables for future temp sensors and who knows what else. Also there are two cat5s and a coax on the left and right side walls of every room.

Remember sensors such as door/window/motion can be used for automation applications as well as security...