Z-wave mesh dependability

[GadgetChris]

I'm an automation newbie, and have an interest in Z-wave.

What I'm curious about is the RF propagation.
Right now I only plan to use about 4 devices and 3 of them are in wall switches.
My wall boxes are metal; will that direct the RF in a certain direction?
And do I need to place my devices strategically?
3 of the 4 devices will be in wall switches, what has been your experience with the network discovery process?
Do you see a delay in response, when the first route fails?

Thanks,
Chris in GTA

 

[Rupp]

I'm an automation newbie, and have an interest in Z-wave.

What I'm curious about is the RF propagation.
Right now I only plan to use about 4 devices and 3 of them are in wall switches.
My wall boxes are metal; will that direct the RF in a certain direction?
And do I need to place my devices strategically?
3 of the 4 devices will be in wall switches, what has been your experience with the network discovery process?
Do you see a delay in response, when the first route fails?

Thanks,
Chris in GTA

Metal boxes do block some of the signals so you may have to add a lamp module or 2 in front of the metal boxes to get a good RF mesh. I started with only 3 Z-Wave wall switches and didn't have a single problem in a 2700sq ft house but I have plastic boxes. The biggest factor in a Z-Wave setup is the Z-Wave interface and there's none better than the Z-Troller that HomeSeer offers. It's a substitute for a remote as well as a controller. Look under the interfaces link.
http://store.homeseer.com/store/Z-Wave-C52.aspx

 

[IVB]

For me, the biggest factors driving my stability were my home construction and the "retry on failure" level of my software engine (CQC).

1) Home Construction: My house has been extended 3x by 3 different owners over the last 96 years, and even though it's only 1650 sqft in a single floor it didn't get remotely stable until I hit the 12+ device mark. At 7 zWave devices/switches, it was 70/30 at best. I found that even with 20' between switches, I couldn't get reliable control as the signal wasn't making it. The Intermatic remote I was using was all but useless as it couldn't turn lights on/off with 100% confidence.

2) "Retry on failure": I had to ask Dean to upgrade the CQC driver to work around my issues, even though everyone else had no issues with their zWave setup (probably newer home construction). He made it more forgiving and re-try on failure. The remote would give up a little too quickly and it's not like Intermatic is going to modify their firmware just for me .

At this point it's pretty reliable, although I am currently at 16 devices. I'll be putting in another 6, but i'll need an electrician to install as they're for 3way wiring that I just can't figure out.

Here's a picture of the layout.

 

[AutomatedOutlet]

The biggest factor in a Z-Wave setup is the Z-Wave interface and there's none better than the Z-Troller that HomeSeer offers.

You say that there is none better. Which ones have you tried? I think most people would agree that the Leviton one is the best.

 

[Rupp]

The biggest factor in a Z-Wave setup is the Z-Wave interface and there's none better than the Z-Troller that HomeSeer offers.

You say that there is none better. Which ones have you tried? I think most people would agree that the Leviton one is the best.

I beta tested one of the Levition interfaces, used the HomePro USB unit as well as the Intermatic Z-Wave USB Interface but when you consider the Z-Troller is a portable, self-contained combination Z-Wave primary controller and PC Interface it's hard to beat. Combine this with the Z-Seer™ Diagnostics Software for Z-Wave and you can finally visualize your Z-Wave network.
http://store.homeseer.com/store/Z-Seer-Dia...ve-P235C66.aspx

 

[68sting]

I will agree. The ztroller and zseer is a great combination.

 

[deranged]

I'm an automation newbie, and have an interest in Z-wave.

What I'm curious about is the RF propagation.
Right now I only plan to use about 4 devices and 3 of them are in wall switches.
My wall boxes are metal; will that direct the RF in a certain direction?
And do I need to place my devices strategically?
3 of the 4 devices will be in wall switches, what has been your experience with the network discovery process?
Do you see a delay in response, when the first route fails?

Thanks,
Chris in GTA

Since the original topic is RF reliability of Z-Wave I will chime in with my useless comments.

At 48 Devices, my Z-wave network is very reliable and extremely fast, even when the network had missing devices in it. ( devices that died ).

When did it become reliable, well thats hard to tell, I was an very early adopter of Z-Wave and went through the early pains with the first generation stuff.
I recently setup a test network of about 7 devices most of them about 15-20 ft apart ( sorry no metal boxes ). The longest distance from the controller to the last device was no more than 30 ft, through floor and walls. I did not remove 1 device in the small network so I cannot speak for recovery.
They had been all Intermatic devices and I had no issues, this is in the same house as my main Z-Wave network.

Some of the software products allow you to re-discover your Z-wave network if 1 device does fail. You can also remove any failed device from the Z-wave completely from the network.

My personal opinion is the HS Z-Troller is too expensive.

StevenE

 

[Frunple]

Any Software solutions similar to "upstart" for UPB yet?

 

[KenM]

I'm an automation newbie, and have an interest in Z-wave.

What I'm curious about is the RF propagation.
Right now I only plan to use about 4 devices and 3 of them are in wall switches.
My wall boxes are metal; will that direct the RF in a certain direction?
And do I need to place my devices strategically?
3 of the 4 devices will be in wall switches, what has been your experience with the network discovery process?
Do you see a delay in response, when the first route fails?

Thanks,
Chris in GTA

Hi Chris,

Every set-up is different but...

I have been using various Z-Wave brands for a little over a year now. I have a relatively small, wood frame, California house of about 1500 square feet. The experiments I have conducted have led me to believe that a very simple RF link, like an Intermatic HA09 battery remote to any Z-Wave wall switch, will work well at 50 feet, and 'probably' further. My best guess would be to have the farthest distance 'from anything to anything' in you network at about 30 feet. That would allow for a little safety factor.

I have never used any software that could discover a Z-Wave network, you might be confusing that with 're-discovery'.

As I understand the Z-Wave network logic; When a command is transmitted, the device will try a direct (no relay) rout to the end device. If the direct command fails then the network relay logic comes into play. Using a 'Z-Troller' and 'Z-Seer' as diagnostic tools... At my location, a direct Z-Wave command/response might take about 300 milliseconds. A command that has trouble finding the end device may take around a second for a command/response cycle. As a comparison, the INSTEON devices I had, averaged about 800 milliseconds for the command/response cycle, a failed command may take several seconds.

The only, actual, Z-Wave software that I have used, is HomeSeer2 and some of the early ControlThink software. Other software may be different. If a Z-Wave device is missing or broken, both of these two software can inform you of the problem and offer up solutions for removing the offending (dead) device.

Also, as I understand it, the newer generation Z-Wave chips can handle more data with less power (=quicker).

A common misunderstanding is that metal boxes will block Z-Wave RF signals. The metal boxes can reflect the RF, but at the frequency Z-Wave operates at, and the given size of the boxes, blocking the signal from getting out is next to impossible. It is probable the the metal boxes will work as radiators (antenna) for the RF. I have actually wrapped a HA22 Z-Wave controller device into a grounded, metal foil box to test this, it worked fine for me, completely enclosed in the grounded metal box.

Hope this helped some :unsure:

Ken

edit corrected spelling

 

[MikeB]

the INSTEON devices I had, averaged about 800 milliseconds for the command/response cycle

Wow, that seems high. I get about 600-1000ms when Insteon needs a retry (rarely at my house), but 200-300ms when it does not.

 

[GadgetChris]

My personal opinion is the HS Z-Troller is too expensive.

StevenE

Thanks StevenE,

What do you use for controller?
Do you use a PC with s/w?

Chris in GTA

 

[GadgetChris]

The only, actual, Z-Wave software that I have used, is HomeSeer2 and some of the early ControlThink software. Other software may be different. If a Z-Wave device is missing or broken, both of these two software can inform you of the problem and offer up solutions for removing the offending (dead) device.

A common misunderstanding is that metal boxes will block Z-Wave RF signals. The metal boxes can reflect the RF, but at the frequency Z-Wave operates at, and the given size of the boxes, blocking the signal from getting out is next to impossible. It is probable the the metal boxes will work as radiators (antenna) for the RF. I have actually wrapped a HA22 Z-Wave controller device into a grounded, metal foil box to test this, it worked fine for me, completely enclosed in the grounded metal box.

Ken

Thanks Ken,

It would be my guess as well that the signal would not actually blocked, but 'radiated' out the front?!
I guess, I'll have to bite the bullet and give it a try. Will get some 'on wall' switches to provide better coverage...

Z-Seer sounds interesting, but HomeSeer appears way too expensive.
Right now I'm leaning towards ControlThink, although I really would have liked Linux s/w!
And since I need a USB controller, I'm out of luck there, right?

Thanks,
Chris in GTA

 

[KenM]

Chris,

As far as what direction the signal will be radiated in, I don't know too much about that. What I was trying to say, ... Is, unless I am a steely eyed RF engineer, I would not worry about direction or reflection of the Z-Wave RF. This RF will get out. After the RF gets out, at that frequency, it will generally bounce all over the place and be reliable at a stationary set up.

ControlThink is good reliable software. Their (Intermatic) HA22 controller is USB.

I favor Linux, but have not actually done any Linux programming. I would have to guess that the Z-Troller would be easier to program under Linux as it is a standard serial interface, I could be wrong.



Ken Miller

 

[Rupp]

Thanks Ken,

It would be my guess as well that the signal would not actually blocked, but 'radiated' out the front?!
I guess, I'll have to bite the bullet and give it a try. Will get some 'on wall' switches to provide better coverage...

Z-Seer sounds interesting, but HomeSeer appears way too expensive.
Right now I'm leaning towards ControlThink, although I really would have liked Linux s/w!
And since I need a USB controller, I'm out of luck there, right?

Thanks,
Chris in GTA

Many people are interpreting HomeSeer pricing incorrectly by looking at the hardware offerings. The software is ~$200.00. I'm not sure what is too expensive means to you but for what it does it's a bargain.

 

[68sting]

Here's a link to a coupon for $20 off a Homseer kit also. A ztroller with the kit and the $20 off would end up being just $80. It's more than the usb stuff but when I was looking there were a lot of threads on the act usb controllers not working well. That may not be the case any more.



http://www.homeseer.com/support/newsletters/sep-2007.htm

Lance