17A00-1 expansion question

[chrisdias]

Hi -

I am trying to decide if I should go with an Elk panel or an HAI panel to replace my security system and provide additional home automation control. I don't see a bunch of differences in capabilities or price for Elk vs. HAI. It seems like HAI is aggressive in signing up partners, etc. which makes me think it is a good long term investment.

I have one big problem that i need to overcome though... I have an existing security system installed in my house and I dont want to rewire everything. It would involve ripping alot of walls up to get at the wiring. The current box is in a different location than where the central wiring closet is. I want to be able to reuse the existing wires/contacts if at all possible.

I think i can use OmniPro II Expansion Enclosure (HAI Part Number: 17A00-1) to do this. I am thinking that I would mount this where the current box is, take the existing wires and run it to the 17A00-1, and only need to run 1 Cat6 from this panel to the new wiring closet where i will install and Omni Pro II.

Do i have this right? When reading the manual for the 17A00-1, it says you need an EOL resistor for each of the security zones. I don't know if I have these on the existing zones... door sensors and motion detectors. HOw would I know? If I didn't, could I add these resistors and where would I add them? My hope would be to basically swap out the old panel and put in the new 17A00-1 and everything would work.

Possiblity or pipedream?

thanks!
chris

 

[mustangcoupe]

Hi -

I am trying to decide if I should go with an Elk panel or an HAI panel to replace my security system and provide additional home automation control. I don't see a bunch of differences in capabilities or price for Elk vs. HAI. It seems like HAI is aggressive in signing up partners, etc. which makes me think it is a good long term investment.

I have one big problem that i need to overcome though... I have an existing security system installed in my house and I dont want to rewire everything. It would involve ripping alot of walls up to get at the wiring. The current box is in a different location than where the central wiring closet is. I want to be able to reuse the existing wires/contacts if at all possible.

I think i can use OmniPro II Expansion Enclosure (HAI Part Number: 17A00-1) to do this. I am thinking that I would mount this where the current box is, take the existing wires and run it to the 17A00-1, and only need to run 1 Cat6 from this panel to the new wiring closet where i will install and Omni Pro II.

Do i have this right? When reading the manual for the 17A00-1, it says you need an EOL resistor for each of the security zones. I don't know if I have these on the existing zones... door sensors and motion detectors. HOw would I know? If I didn't, could I add these resistors and where would I add them? My hope would be to basically swap out the old panel and put in the new 17A00-1 and everything would work.

Possiblity or pipedream?

thanks!
chris

Disclamer: I am an ELK user and dont know specifics about the 17A00-1

But FWIW the EOL's should be at the sensor end of the cable, this basically protects you and notifies you of a cut or damaged cable it does no good to put them at the board end of the cable. Another problem you may run into is there is not one set standard for EOLR values. So the panel you are replacing may have them, but they may be the wrong value. How would you know? - You need to disconnect the zones, and test them for resistance, both with the sensor (window/door ect...) open and closed if you have an open(no resistance) in one condition and a dead short (0 ohms) they you have no eolr in the circuit. otherwise you will have a reading in the middle. (Elk used 2.2 K ohms for their EOLR but can also be configured to not use them), Just an FYI incase you dont know ELK also has a zone expander to do the same thing you are thinking about here with the Omni II.

Both panels are real good, and you will find a lot of users of both here to assist you, with which ever you choose.

 

[Neurorad]

I'm in the exact same situation - replacing current panel, and I'm moving the location of the main unit (the control). I've researched both the M1 and HAI fairly thoroughly.

It's pretty easy and cheap with the M1 using a remotely located M1XIN 16 zone Input Expander (~$90), home tun to the wiring closet, since it's located on the 485 data bus.

To remotely locate the inputs with HAI, you need to use the 17A00 Hardwire Expander (as you said). $240 + shipping (received a quote yesterday, for just the board, without the enclosure/cabinet (17A00-9) - I can use the existing enclosure).

BUT - I had an epiphany yesterday. I can just terminate the existing wires onto terminal blocks, located in the existing enclosure, and then home run a dozen or so wires. I have figured out a way to run cable from the current location to the wiring closet - I'll have to pull at least 1 cable anyway, why not 12? I save $90 or $240 (minus the cost of the terminal blocks/strips).

Example terminal/barrier strip/block:

 

[zpollock]

EOLRs can be mounted at the panel/expansion board. It's not preferred, and defeats the purpose of having them to begin with, but if you're in a retrofit situation where putting them at the sensor isn't viable then you can make it work that way.

Keep in mind that the 17A00-1 is a zone and output expander, but does not have some of the special outputs for thermostat, sounder, telephone, two wire smokes, etc. Some of that (such as the siren) could be handled programatically through a relay output, and you probably don't have a thermostat connection to worry about on the old panel if it isn't HA friendly. If you're pulling a Cat5/6 for the data bus anyway, then you could always pull an extra or two if you need to bring certain connections from the old location back to the closet. You may also want an 18/4 run so that you can use the "real" sounder outputs on the main board.

The other thing to consider is that, unless you have a huge existing installation with lots of zones, why not just reroute them to the new wiring closet? If you're planning to pull a single wire for the databus anyway, it's usually not that much harder to pull multiples. You don't have to rip up walls, just extend the existing zone wires from the current location to the new one. That way you don't need the zone expander in addition to the main board.

Edit - Neurorad beat me to the punch while I was (slowly) typing, but zone extension sounds like the easiest solution.

 

[AnthonyZ]

I've also found that when running your data line, it's best to also pull at least one conductor of at least 18G (preferably 16) to tie the panel and the expansion board's grounds together.

 

[Neurorad]

Thanks for the tip! VERY much appreciated.
I've been reading the details on the OPII lately, and a big difference between the OPII and M1 is the need for grounding.

 

[chrisdias]

I thought about the wiring block, or a punch down block, and installing it in the attic too, but then saw the expansion board idea. I posted a while back on avsforum and people suggested the expansion board. I'm never going to run new things off the expansion board, so its really just an expensive wiring block i guess .

Since these are 2 conductor wires, can I use Cat6 so that i only need to run 2 or 3 of those? PUlling 12 more wires on top of all that i've pulled in the past year no longer sounds like fun .

I'll try the voltage to see if the resistors are in there.


Thanks,
Chris

 

[Neurorad]

Since these are 2 conductor wires, can I use Cat6 so that i only need to run 2 or 3 of those? PUlling 12 more wires on top of all that i've pulled in the past year no longer sounds like fun .

Some people use ethernet cable for contacts. The big risk is that it's rather delicate - 23 or 24 AWG (also available 22 AWG, but rare), but that's very close, in actuality, to the normally used 22/4 (22 AWG). If the cable is protected in-wall, and terminated permanently in the wiring closet and subpanel, then it will probably be fine. Good idea.

I'll try the voltage to see if the resistors are in there.

If the resistors are located at the 'end of the line', you may have to replace them. Or make changes, if they're the wrong resistance.
If there are no resistors, you can add them 'end of line', or in the enclosure. Most cocoontech members, it seems, argue against using EOLR's - lots of discussions about EOLR's. You should make up your own mind.