2-wire smoke detectors

[Digger]

The fire verification feature is a nice feature. Make sure you update your firmware to the latest release (today I think) if you are going to use that feature as I believe there was a little "tweak" for that.

So you know the way that feature works is as follows:

Detector trips
Panel resets for 5 seconds
Detector restarts (up to 15 seconds) while the panel retards for 20 seconds to minimize a false alarm during detector restart
Then for the next 60 seconds if the detector trips again the panel goes into alarm. if it does not trip in that 60 seconds then the panel does not go into alarm and thus prevents a false alarm.

BTW I do not work for ELK (Spanky does) but I do get to play with the panel a lot and I put one in my own house I liked it so much.

 

[Mike]

Thanks for the heads up on the firmware release. I updated it recently (earlier this week or last week I think) and would not have thought to check for a bit (then again I think an email comes out on when it updates as well).

Regardless of being an Elk an employee or not, you've helped me a lot, thank you.

I'm looking forward to making further progress on my installation.

Next weekend I'm running conduit up to the attic and having the walls notched in the foyer to prepare for the keypad (and a couple extra cat5 for backup/doorstrikes/etc, I do not want to go back into the walls again after this).

I've been real happy with the Elk, this speed bump has just been a little frustrating. Hopefully, thanks to your feedback I can try to resolve this and move on.

 

[Digger]

Mike are you on Long Island also? I am in western Suffolk off 231

 

[Mike]

I'm close, Commack.

 

[Digger]

Mike,

Deer Park here. Do you need any Insteon Switchlinc V2 relay Switches? I have a few I bought and decided I dont want them. I am going to return them but if you need them it would be cheaper then me shipping them back and you to pay shipping if you are going to buy them anyway.

 

[Mike]

I'll check tomorrow, I'm mostly using dimmers and am almost done replacing everything. I have a switch or two in the basement I haven't installed yet (just need to check what I have).

I think I only have one relay type situation left. I have one other possible location for the basement, but I think the wattage is too high to even use the relay switches, but I have to check. The main basement lights consist of 8 sets of 2 bulb flourescents, and I think that puts it over the edge and will remain a regular switch, but maybe not.

Best case 2 I believe, but I'll check.

 

[Digger]

Ok No Problem.

If you need them and its cheaper for you then we can work something out. If not I will send them back. Just wanted to ask to see if we could both save a few bucks.

I have a few more to put in tomorrow. They are still a little flaky. They turn on like they should but they dont always turn off when told to.

Also two that I linked last week got wiped out and overwritten when I added to more today which was wierd. And not I cant link them back in.

To late to troubleshoot tonight.

 

[Mike]

I'm guessing that could be a signal strength type of issue (they aren't talking) perhaps? The turn off issue is something I saw that I rma'd (actually, correction, on my list to RMA) at least if you are talking about local control. Mine would stick and then after a few attempts it would work. Resetting the device helped as well, but the issue returned after a little while.

I'm guessing it was an earlier version, but I haven't taken it out yet.

 

[Digger]

Local works fine. Its signals coming from the M1. If I set the on time for less than a minute and do a test by tripping the motion or door switch the M1 turns teh lights on but they dont always turn off . I am trying to automate the lighting for both energy savings and security reasons.

Why I can no longer link the two bathroom dimmers today after they were bumped out I dont know. They work locally but I cant link them to the M1 anymore. They worked fine for the past week until I added more switches elsewhere in the house today and linked them.

The laundry room light is better now that I have more switches installed but that was only a few feet away from the Serial link and on the same circuit as an RF link. Its not 100% turn off yet but pretty close.

 

[Mike]

Maybe try doing a factory reset on the bathroom switches and try again. I used that when mine were acting wierd and it helped a bit (same ones I am returning though as my particular issue returned).

I ran tests on my detectors. Here is what I did.

1. I triggered the suspect detector (the last one in the loop) using a canned spray tester. It went into an alarm condition and was triggered.
2. I went to the keypad and entered a user code, the panel stopped.
3. I then went to elk function 2 and reset the detectors, it worked fine and the detector reset (no reversing relay in place right now so only that one detector fired).
4. Granted I had to reset it a few times as it would go off and then 15-20 seconds later or so it would trigger again (remnants of the canned tester I am assuming). I used a compressed air can to clear the area and it stayed reset and did not activate again after that.

As such, I am assuming my inability to reset the detectors originally was because I was using the installer code (which isn't allowed to).

I am also thinking back to the first false alarm, I am fairly certain I looked in each room and there was no red light on any of the detectors. Not positive, but close as that should have been prominent and I did look at each one (not really thinking about the red light at the time though). I'm assuming even if they were all connected with the RRS-MOD/2W-MOD2, I still should have seen a red light on the triggered alarm (that should not have affected the basic functionality of the detector).

My 30 second alarm cutoff also worked, the first time it went off I waited for it to reset and it did work properly. The detector continued to trigger.

My assumption then is that I have an intermittent wiring issue on the last leg between the fourth and fifth detector, possibly enhanced by having the RRS-MOD and 2W-MOD2 (just a guess).

If the detector was getting stuck, I should not have been able to reset it right? Also I understand this should not have happened on a new detector either.

Is there any way to further test the wire (would any tests show the issue?)? I am going to replace that leg with a new run of wire and change the zone to fire verified. In addition I am going to hook it up to the phone (hadn't done that since I was planning on internet monitoring) and have it call me and my wife if it goes off. Then I can dial in to reset it (and have my wife or a neighbor check it if we are not home). Listen in would be cool as well, but I think the above should help for now.

If any of the assumptions above seem flawed, please let me know as well. From the feedback I've gotten it seems to explain my issues.

Thank you for all the help on this.

 

[Digger]

Since this is a 2 wire detector then if the wiring were to open to the last detector it would shut off. If the wiring were to short to the last detector it would also shutoff the dector. In both cases the panel would stay in alarm until it is acknowledged and reset.

At the moment I dont have any new ideas. My brain is fried from the Insteon problems and a leaky kitchen sink today. No rest for the weary.

 

[Mike]

I don't know exactly how they work, but I was wondering if the communication done with the 2W-MOD2 and some partially damaged wiring could produce a symptom (produce an intermittent affect that is read as a false alarm?).

Not sure if that makes any sense or is remotely possible.

After thinking it through, it was not just the detector that was added just before it started falsing, but the 2W-MOD2 I believe as well.

I have not replaced the wiring, and have the detectors hooked up again. I setup phone support and have the system call myself and my wife at work and on the cell if it goes off. Then I can dial in and shut it off, if it does happen.

It happened a few times in a few days, so I am expecting I would have a false alarm within a week if it was the wiring. Otherwise perhaps add back in the 2W-MOD2 and see if it reproduces (although I may hold off on this for now and try and get my elk installation finished before messing with the clean-me functionality which theoretically could be part of my problem).

I've got an electrician helping me run lots of conduit into my attic so I can fix the original wiring installation and build upon it, so I am soon to be out of excuses (and then have to do lots of wire pulling though). I'd really like to get the infrastructure out of the way so I can start playing with software...

 

[Mike]

On your insteon problem, you might want to try using a control linc to confirm the same symptoms (it should be the same, but if not it will give you additional information) from the same circuit.

 

[Digger]

You might want to contact ELK to see if the reversing relay is compatible with the M1.

If I send manual commands to shut off the lights they usually work but they dont always work as part of the rules or if I shutoff from a linked switch.

I can have the M1 send a signal to turn all lights on when a fire alarm trips. That works. Then I send the same type of signal to turn off all of the lights when I arm away and its daylight and only some turn off. I try again and a few more turn off. I try a third time and no more turn off.

Anyway I will play with it more another day.

 

[Mike]

Are you specifiying it as turn all on/off? or sending a command to each individual light?

I'm wondering, single commands are supposed to be verified, but there is no way to do so if it is 'all off'. I saw the link issue (I have two front lights, if I send an on command to the linked switch, it typically turns on, but not always turns off the linked secondary outside switch). What I did was explicitly mention which ones to turn on and off and it seems to work much better.

Should it work the other way, of course. I originally thought it might be signal strength, but the separate commands seem to work.

Now for turning all lights on that can be cumbersome for a large install. This might help you in the short term though.