AlarmRelay and OmniPro II - Which Radio

[Del91574]

They might as well hang the keys outside the door....not to mention they're stuck with a single CS, but the illusion of choice is there for the DIY compared to those evil professional installers.
 
There are plenty of mom and pop and a few nationals that would install a system within your cited budget and monitoring rate. There'd be a minimum contract and the equipment might be a lease. For that matter, there's guys out there that would support someone BYOD and pick up monitoring. Lynx and Simon kits can be had all day for the dollar amount you stated.
 
And in your case Ano, after digging through your exceptional wit,  you're connecting a $1500+ panel on an install with multiple detectors cross zoned and abundant coverage with 3rd party integration to something that works "reliable and good enough" to save maybe $50-100 on the communications device because UL listing on the route is not important. It's just like you bought yourself a  Ferrari and now are tossing on recapped tires because they're round, black and have a rough surface, but then expect close to the same performance.
 
The net result, for your particular judgement, is whether or not you wish the unit to be invisible to the CS, since you're going to be stuck dealing with dialer capture due to panel choice and whether or not your particular CS has a direct IP port via the third party cellular vendor or not, assuming you wish to increase the speed and performance of the dialer by eliminating the delay if the 3rd party vendor does DTMF panel emulation or how the particular CS takes data from the vendor to their receiver and how many accounts are involved....but hey, what do I know after 20 years in installing systems and building central stations.

 

[ano]

We'll looks like the IPDataTel is not going to work.  They warned me that is about 50-50, and apparently I'm the not-work 50%.  It actually did work sometimes, but the problem was it didn't reliably detect the Omni's Contact ID.  Sometimes it did, sometimes it didn't. 
 
By the way, while I was on the phone I asked them if the IPDataTel was UL listed for monitoring? They claim it was.
 
So on to the next radio. I should have it in a few days.
 
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Del, you misunderstood, I never said UL monitoring wasn't important, I'm only saying that you should have the best system you can within your budget.  No the SimpliSafe is not up to the standards of systems you install, but that doesn't mean it has no value. For many people, its far better than nothing and these people can't spend more. For the price its pretty darn good. Great? No.
 
Now how about for "professionally" installed residential systems or high-end DIY systems.  Del you imply they all should be UL listed from bottom to top, or their junk. But I'm sure you realize 99% are not. I for one am one of the very few who tried to learn about the UL requirements, and the more I learned, the more I realized that making my system 100.000% UL is really not practical or desirable because it means turning on or off features I may have wanted.  For example, the UL requires a 24 hour standby time, but the largest battery that even fits in an Omni or Elk panel is 8Ah. That would mean a total panel current would need to be under around 300ma to meet that requirement.  The IPDataTel ALONE has a standby current of 130ma.  Add in some smokes, motion detectors, consoles, etc. and exceeding 300ma is likely the rule not the exception.  So put in a bigger 24Ah battery, sure, but how many people do that?  So by violating that rule alone, most residential alarms do NOT meet UL standards.  Does that mean they are worthless?  Of course not. And there are many more UL standards that most systems chose no to meet for whatever reason, usually cost or convenience. 

 

[Del91574]

IPdatatel is not UL listed. I have a dealer account for them. Must be stated in documentation and on the units themselves. Old rule is if it ain't there, it doesn't exist.
 
CID is CID (basic DTMF) and a conformal standard, so I can't understand why they're saying it can't capture the signal. Defies logic.
 
There's a difference between a UL certificated install and installing UL listed components. Not many installs are UL certificated, however almost every pro install will (or truly should) consist of UL listed components but using a non-listed device as a pro, you're opening up a legal issue when something happens and going on the assumption the performance based device is just for the application rather than certified as such. Same holds true with a panel like the M1 and their firmware...they've had UL listed firmware and non-UL (pending). The key is the UL listed has been tested as a whole and performs as designed. All the key parts don't inhibit the reception or transmission of alarm signals to a CS or life safety items. Non-UL means that it SHOULD perform, however it hasn't been tested so therefore, it's an unknown if X or Y may inhibit a key function.
 
In your case, you're using UL certificated installation values for an omni install. Does not apply to a non-certificated install. The battery times and aux power standards are very conservative.....but there are also a whole host of design and programming options that would need to be considered. Entirely different ball of wax and install to do a UL CERTIFICATED installation, again, different than using UL LISTED components.
 
The point of using UL listed components is they're tested as being fit for usage on an alarm system and perform as designed to a very high margin of reliability....they have to.
 
The simplisafe system is downright scary and honestly dangerous when you read what the caveats are, listing items and even theories of operation. Read the article closely and look at the points they bring up and the design flaws.

 

[ano]

CID is CID (basic DTMF) and a conformal standard, so I can't understand why they're saying it can't capture the signal. Defies logic.

All I can say is this, when I initially spoke to AlarmRelay they said the IPDataTel was maybe a 50/50 with the OmniPro II because of slightly non-standard Contact ID.  I decided to try it because monitoring was cheaper, but no-go.
 
So I received the TG-1 Express which they say is 100% with the OmnoPro II, and ta-da, it works great.
 
There was only one weird thing.  When I hooked the IPDataTel to the OP II, green and red telephone wires, the voltage was 48V with green being positive and red negative.  That is exactly like I would expect it. 
 
When I hooked the TG-1 Express up, and measured the voltage, it was 30V and reversed, with the red (ring) being positive, and the green (tip) being negative. The OP II is not complaining, so I'm not worried, but this seems reversed.
 
Also, looks like UL listing is not the answer to all problems:
-----> https://www.kirschenbaumesq.com/article/class-action-against-telular-corporations-telguard-tg-1-express-august-19-2016
Only time will tell if I have this disconnect problem.

 

[Del91574]

I still don't believe what AR is telling you with CID. I've installed literally thousands of CID panels and communications routes end to end.
 
Polarity isn't a huge issue anymore with phone equipment. Sometimes occurs, but not often.
 
The class action is more or less going after the cellular vendors, via proxy. That's what's going on with that case on the backend. The cellular providers are third party to Telular and the service class and negotiation there is the issue. Notice the class action is limited to a single state. That's a carrier issue (contracted via Telular)

 

[ano]

I still don't believe what AR is telling you with CID. I've installed literally thousands of CID panels and communications routes end to end.
 
Polarity isn't a huge issue anymore with phone equipment. Sometimes occurs, but not often.
 
The class action is more or less going after the cellular vendors, via proxy. That's what's going on with that case on the backend. The cellular providers are third party to Telular and the service class and negotiation there is the issue. Notice the class action is limited to a single state. That's a carrier issue (contracted via Telular)

If you believe the testimony in the class action suit, the complaint is that TG-1 Express, which connects through Telular, is occasionally dropping the cellular connection, whereby other radios with the same cellular providers are NOT dropping their connection.  So I believe the blame is being placed on both the TG-1 AND Telular, not the cellular carriers, and not the alarm companies using Telular. 
 
I can't find it this second, but in reading about the TG-1 Express, I did find several claims where users says their cellular connection was dropped now and then. These people have connected the supervision relay on the TG-1 Express to a zone on their panel.  Without that, you probably would not know if the cellular signal was dropped. 
 
In any case I have 30 days to return this radio for a refund, so i will be monitoring the supervision signal from the TG-1 to see if my connection drops. 

 

[Del91574]

Not going to get into an argument, but that is just a suit and NOT a judgement or settlement and hasn't even hit the testimony stage and google turns up little to nothing about issues with the unit.
 
I read all the docs and nowhere does it say either of what is being inferred by the statement and class action is somewhat misleading as the suit is literally in only 1 state and the case has not been heard yet and the complaint really comes down to a specific point in time that really sounds like an issue with a 3rd party and a bad run. The internet posts they cited are kinda laughable. 1 is an end user stating they were talking to Telular on their DIY install (Telular will NOT deal with end users) and another complaining about an app's response or the update of the app or bugs. Same thing happens every time iOS updates where apps aren't trusted or don't work properly.
 
I'd be more shocked if you had a cellular connection that didn't drop occasionally. I know around here it happens periodically and I see alerts on it all the time. Heavy weather and tower maintenance are typical culprits. Maintenance on towers happens more than what people expect or know of.
 
Installing a cellular communicator and NOT connecting the supervision relay is a bad practice, no matter what the unit is.

 

[ano]

My reason for mentioning this has nothing to do with the legal process, but it is something to watch. I don't care who where when. What I care about is that mine works reliably.

 

[Del91574]

Didn't say that in this case, but strangely, there has been ZERO chatter or mention of this in the industry, and it seems very suspect that a small mom and pop can say they installed HUNDREDS in the timeframe they're referencing and experienced that sort of issue across the board.
 
DSC had a pile of bad chips on their units (C24) and even Alarmnet and a few others...all with tech bulletins and recalls. I've never heard or seen anything with Telular, and that's from someone that has been putting in their units back to the analog cell days.

 

[madas]

Any more updates on DateTel vs TG1 for the OmniPro.  I'm about to switch to AlarmRelay and want to know which way to go
 
Also - what are you paying per month for their service?

 

[drvnbysound]

Any more updates on DateTel vs TG1 for the OmniPro.  I'm about to switch to AlarmRelay and want to know which way to go
 
Also - what are you paying per month for their service?

 
The last time I checked Alarm Relay charges $19.95/mo for cellular monitoring, and that price includes the monthly cellular service cost for the communicator.

 

[madas]

The IPDataTel device seems to work fine with my Omni.  The AlarmRelay tech told me there was a recent firmware update that seems to have fixed a lot of issues.