Apologies and another question

[mikefamig]

First let me say that this was my first experience with alarm systems and I did not understand things as well when I first installed it in April as I do now. I mention this because I may have misunderstood what I was looking at and reporting things incorrectly early on.
 
I began this thread with the problem where the system voiced an open zone in area1 when arming area2 and that threw me for a loop for a week. It ended up with elk telling me that the system behaves this way. They don't call it normal or abnormal but just say that it is what it is. So I wasted a week or so on that and now consider it to be normal.
 

Mike -
 
I went back and re-read this entire thread.  Let me summarize what I came away with and then tell me if I've got it right.
 
1) In your original configuration, with the P212S in the garage, it seemed like there was a data bus problem of some sort, perhaps caused by the M1XRFTW wireless adapter.   You found that after replacing the XRFTW, it worked ok without the TWA connected, but problems came back when you connected the TWA in addition to the XRFTW.   And if you disconnected the XRFTW, it worked ok with the TWA connected. 

 
Yes, originally I had the p212s in the garage and the TWA in the house powered from the M1. In addition to the area1/area2 chime problem the voice chime would also announce a zone violation at random. It was always a zone that was violated but it had been violated for some time like a window that was open all day. I could be sitting watching tv and suddenly it would just speak a zone name for no apparent reason. When I removed the p212s and garage components the M1 ran well with both the twa and the xrftw. When I attached the p212s and garage components the problem came back.
 
After some trial and error we learned that it worked well without the xrftw. and elk agreed to replace the wireless system. In post #66 I arrived at a stable system sans xrftw. It was while the xrftw was in the mail that I moved the p212s up to the house and removed the twa.
 
When the new xrftw arrived I installed it and the system ran well. I added the TWA and the random chimes returned. This is when we turned our attention away from the wireless and towards the possibility of an overload problem. I offloaded the twa to the p212s. After that the chimes were less frequent but I started getting control startup errors in the log and xep restores. This is when I started twisting wires together to carry the power to the garage and the xep restores disappeared and the controls startups were less.
 
Today I reinstalled the firmware again just for peace of mind and the randoms chimes became very frequent. I immediately cycled the power on the system and go figure - it is running perfectly since....except for one thing.
 
Now you guys are going to think that I'm making this crap up but something new is happening here. Today  I erased the error log using elkrp2. That seemed to work and the log is clear in elkrp2 and the log is clear in M12TOGO but the log is a mess in ekeypad. Ekeypad error log shows a string of "flash memory error trouble" messages. And what's weird is that they are dated Sep 26....two days ago. I'm looking at this as an ekeypad app problem and ignoring it for the time being.
 

2) Because of winter temperatures in the garage, you decide to move the P212S into the house and power the devices in the garage from there over the Cat5e cable, using 3 pairs to provide the power.

Yes while the xrftw was in the mail to elk I moved the p212s to the house thinking that  I made a bad decision putting it outside in the first place and I initially used 1 twisted pair for power. It is when I noticed low voltage in the garage that I added the other pairs. I think that it was system restores that made me notice the low voltage.
 

Assuming I have these facts right, here's what's bothering me.
 
Item 1 makes it seem like there is a power supply loading problem on the M1 itself.  It appears that when you decrease the load by removing the TWA or the XRFTW, the problem goes away.
 
But item 2 makes it seem like there is a problem with the devices in the garage not getting adequate power.  I guess it's possible that moving the P212S created a second problem.   But I wonder....

I have gone through the same thought process.
 
 

Since moving the P212S back to the garage is easy for you to do, that seems like a good next step.  But I suspect that you will see the earlier problems with the TWA and XRFTW return.
 
If that happens, I'm thinking it would make sense to try and provide a separate power source for the TWA and see if that fixes things.  It would be nice to get some understanding of whether this really is all a power problem, and a separate power supply for the TWA might be a way to prove that.
 
I apologize for throwing another suggestion at you at this point.  Just thinking about all the things you've seen and what it could mean.

Don't apologize, I'm open to all suggestions. DEL has also recommended a separate ps for the twa. On the one hand I would love to get to the bottom of this and on the other I am thinking about just moving the p212s to the garage, disconnecting the TWA and if it runs well I can call it a day. I don't really need the twa and I don;t think that it's worth running another power supply just for it alone.
 
Mike.

 

[drvnbysound]

What about running the XEP off the VAUX terminals, so it's backed up, and powering the TWA from the P1216?

 

[mikefamig]

What about running the XEP off the VAUX terminals, so it's backed up, and powering the TWA from the P1216?

That's an interesting idea. I don't have the ehternet switch or router backed up yet but that can be done. The xep only draws 300ma and it may balance the load. I will be moving things around today and may give it a try.
 
Mike.

 

[drvnbysound]

Yeah, I have my XEP running off a Leviton structured wiring 12V supply, that is backed up via an APC UPS. The UPS also backs up my Comcast modem and network switches.
 
However, I have done other installations where I've connected the XEP to the VAUX terminals as I mentioned above. There could be a case where a the breaker powering the M1G and/or XEP fails, while the modem/router/switch could be on a different circuit and still operational.

 

[mikefamig]

OK I moved the p212s back to the garage.
 
The p212s is powering the M1KP, XIN and OVR (3 outputs)
The M1G is powering the M1KP2, TWA and M1XRFTW. I am curious to see how the M1 handles the TWA.
 
II'm not sure that I understand how the power supply on the control works. I thought that it was a 1 amp supply and that the same 1 amp had to supply the rs-485 devices and any devices attached to j16 and vaux and saux. I just looked at the specs and it says 2.5 amps with 1.5amp continuous. I don't understand how connecting the twa to the j16 and vaux makes any difference than just connecting it to just the j16 for power. If I dsconnect it from vaux wouldn't it just draw what it needs from the j16 power lead? Is there any difference?
 
Mike.

 

[RAL]

My understanding of the M1 power supply specs is that it can provide 2.5A maximum, and 1.0A of that is reserved for devices connected to the data bus, SAUX, VAUX and J16.
 
I think you are right that if you connect the TWA via J16, then there is no need to connect another power supply to the +12V TWA inputs UNLESS the load of the TWA will cause you to exceed the 1.0A spec of the M1.
 
Since you've had trouble when both the TWA and XRFTW are connected at the same time, it sure seems like total power draw could be causing at least some of your problems. 
 
Somehow, I missed the fact that you were using the P212S to power the TWA after you moved the P212S into the house.   When you did that, did you still have the cable connected to J16?   If you did, that makes me very suspicious that the P212S and M1 power supply could be fighting each other and causing problems.
 
It's possible that Elk isolates the two power connections internally on the TWA to avoid this.  One way to check is to connect a power supply to the +12V input on the TWA and then, with J16 disconnected, see if you measure 12V on the red wire.   If you do, then that says they are not isolated, which would be bad.
 
Now that you've moved the P212S back to the garage, its connection to the TWA is probably moot.  So I like drvnbysound's suggestion to try offloading the XEP to another power source.

 

[mikefamig]

My understanding of the M1 power supply specs is that it can provide 2.5A maximum, and 1.0A of that is reserved for devices connected to the data bus, SAUX, VAUX and J16.
 
I think you are right that if you connect the TWA via J16, then there is no need to connect another power supply to the +12V TWA inputs UNLESS the load of the TWA will cause you to exceed the 1.0A spec of the M1.
 
Since you've had trouble when both the TWA and XRFTW are connected at the same time, it sure seems like total power draw could be causing at least some of your problems. 
 
Somehow, I missed the fact that you were using the P212S to power the TWA after you moved the P212S into the house.   When you did that, did you still have the cable connected to J16?   If you did, that makes me very suspicious that the P212S and M1 power supply could be fighting each other and causing problems.
 
It's possible that Elk isolates the two power connections internally on the TWA to avoid this.  One way to check is to connect a power supply to the +12V input on the TWA and then, with J16 disconnected, see if you measure 12V on the red wire.   If you do, then that says they are not isolated, which would be bad.
 
Now that you've moved the P212S back to the garage, its connection to the TWA is probably moot.  So I like drvnbysound's suggestion to try offloading the XEP to another power source.

 
I questioned connecting a power source to the twa while it is connected to j16 and it was DEL that assured me that it was designed to have both connected at the same time and if you take the installation instructions literally that's what it says to do.
 
But to re-phrase my question about the M1 power supply - putting aside how the twa circuitry handles it - is it redundant to have the j16 powering the twa and also the vaux? Are the j16 12v+ and the vaux 12v+ the same source and therefore redundant?
 
Mike.

 

[drvnbysound]

I am 99.999% sure that they are the same; I'd have to find that in the documentation again. I believe the implication for the TWA power connections are for a separate supply (e.g. PS212S or P1216).

 

[mikefamig]

I am 99.999% sure that they are the same; I'd have to find that in the documentation again. I believe the implication for the TWA power connections are for a separate supply (e.g. PS212S or P1216).

drvnbysound
 
I took your advice and moved the xep to vaux and powered the TWA with the p1216.
 
Mike.

 

[Del91574]

If the TWA is being used for any sort of alarm annunciation then the 1216 as anything other than an academic test item should only be temporary.
 
The M1 only puts out 1A from anything powered from the panel, you can't change that.
 
I wouldn't worry about what the app is saying is an error. If the log shows nothing, that's the gospel, not the app; it may be false information or holdover.

 

[mikefamig]

If the TWA is being used for any sort of alarm annunciation then the 1216 as anything other than an academic test item should only be temporary.

Why? Power failure?  I thought of that. I am still considering removing the twa permanently. As an academic test it is going well so far.
 
Mike.

 

[Del91574]

You are using the TWA's amp for alarm annunciation. Especially if you have any form of life safety device attached to the system; although the device may have an integral sounder, any power loss would cause any announcements or warnings to not function.

 

[mikefamig]

You are using the TWA's amp for alarm annunciation. Especially if you have any form of life safety device attached to the system; although the device may have an integral sounder, any power loss would cause any announcements or warnings to not function.

 
DEL
 
I connected the TWA to vaux for a short while and it ran well. How is that any different than just powering it through the j16 connector if it is at all?  I tried it out of curiosity and didn't expect it to help but the system seemed to run well.
 
Mike.

 

[mikefamig]

You are using the TWA's amp for alarm annunciation. Especially if you have any form of life safety device attached to the system; although the device may have an integral sounder, any power loss would cause any announcements or warnings to not function.

 
I noticed that out1 still works even with the twa installed. If I decide to keep the twa I could wire speakers to out1 and/or out2 for alarm purposes and use the twa for any kind of general announcements I may want to make through rules.
 
Mike.

 

[mikefamig]

So far it seems that I am past the random voice chimes and control startups and I'm very happy about that.
 
I am still getting ethernet trouble and ethernet restore messages in the error log. Am I asking too much to expect the system to run 24 hours without error? I don't mean to be sarcastic, I really want to know if an occasional ethernet trouble is expected in the error log. These errors occurred as I was logging in and out of the system with elkrp2 and ekeypad. I wasn't editing in RP, just looking around and I was also synchronizing and configuring ekeypad on a couple of ios devices
 
Mike.