Apologies and another question

[mikefamig]

You know I thought that we had determined that power supply was my problem and I was just about on the hook to go with DEL's recommendation to get a larger power supply and run an awg16 pair down to the garage and then when I was sitting at the pc this afternoon the system had another random chime. I looked at the log and there was a control restart at 2:40 this afternoon and the chime was around 3:30. There was also an ethernet restore last evening.  So much for having gotten to the bottom of this problem.
 
About an hour before the trouble I had been poking around in a J-box where the cat5e to the garage is spliced. I am only using the green pair and a brown common on this cable and the splices all look perfect. I used those little gel filled crimp splices that look like little jelly beans and I can see through the clear plastic case that the wires are in the metal crimps. I only mention this because the chimes came back shortly after handling the splices.
 
So do you guys think that the random chimes can be caused by a poor connection on the rs-485? My auto system startup was at 2:40 and there are only 16 errors reported on the rs-485 right now at 4:40. According to tech support at Elk that should not cause an error in itself.
 
Any takers?
 
Mike.
 
PS Elk  has agreed to RMA the control and the technician reports that he has never heard of a system that chimes randomly. I plan to send it in tomorrow.

 

[mikefamig]

Yes, you would able to be at the 13-15 range easily with a good battery on the supply.
 
Centralized at the M1, you'd use the diodes to drop the voltage for any peripherals you install and connect to the supply in the house. While most will live and be happy with a higher voltage, some equipment doesn't fare so well with overvolt.
 
A single supply would or could take any device you want to run and loadshed off the M1, allow a good standby time with an appropriately sized battery and still be supervised by the panel via a single zone input. Would also negate any temperature concerns and the necessity for multiple supplies, transformers, batteries (besides the panel and supply).

DEL
 
I contacted Altronix tech support because I could not determine if all of their supplies ahd adjustable outputs. They claim that the maximum output is 13.8 volts and I was getting that with the p212s. If that is teh case then it the Altronix won't help me. Is there a particular model that you know that will output a higher voltage?
 
Here is their reply:
 
Anthony Lau

To
Me


 
Oct 3 at 2:03 PM
[SIZE=12pt]All Altronix boards have a potentiometer (VR1) that you can adjust the outputs. However, the adjustment is minor. Approximately  +/- 2.5 vdc.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]For 12vdc the highest is about 13.8vdc and for the 24vdc setting, about 26.8vdc.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The individual board part #s are AL400ULXB2 for the power supply board and PD8 for the 2 output boards.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Thank you,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Anthony Lau[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Tech Support [/SIZE]

 

[Del91574]

The 212 doesn't have enough to push out per output...1A per output max on a 2A supply. The Altronix unit handles a lot more per individual output, not to mention as a board in entirety.
 
I'd have to grab a unit and give it a whirl, but the trimmer does give you the ability to adjust within reason.
 
The other way I know of would be to use something like ESD (now Assa accupower) units. No trimmer but typically kick out more than listed voltage....heck almost all of them are above the listed voltage.

 

[mikefamig]

DEL
 
I ended  up returning the elk controller and the new one is returned, installed and has been running well since about 5pm yesterday. I have also received a 4 amp altronix power supply from ebay. The altronix only cost me 42 bucks and was worth it just to have it as an option. Now I have plenty of firepower and a few decisions to make.
 
The way I see it I have three options:
 
1
Put the Altronix in the house and run both the house and garage on it.
 
2
Put the 2 amp elk p212s ps in the house to take some of the load off of the controller and put the 4 amp Altronix in the garage.
 
3
Put the 4 amp Altronix in the house to supplement the controller ps and leave the 2 amp p212s in the garage.
 
I like option 1 best being the neatest of the three but it also involves the most work. I would have to cut the wall for the altronix enclosure, run an AC line to it and complete a 16awg line between the buildings. I have a 16awg pair between the buildings but it ends at the exterior wall of the house and would need to be extended to the altronix enclosure.
 
In options 2 and 3 each building has it's own supply. Option 2 puts about 3 amps in the house with the controller and p212s combined and 4 amps in the garage witht he altronix. I like this because the supply is fairly evenly spread and the garage is unfinished making it easier to install the new altronix enclosure and get an ac line to it. Option 3 I'm not crazy about.
 
So what do you think? Do you have any thoughts,insight or suggestions? I would love any input that you can offer.
 
Mike.

 

[Del91574]

Depends on whether or not you want to pull cable or not and if you're OK with the derating and standby times of the batteries.
 
I don't understand why you would need to or want to recess the Altronix enclosure. They're not designed for flush mounting in a sheetrock wall, not to mention that significantly complicates the installation and/or any separation.

 

[mikefamig]

Depends on whether or not you want to pull cable or not and if you're OK with the derating and standby times of the batteries.

I won't have to pull a cable. I have a 16/4 between the buildings that has two leads used for the garage speaker and two leads that are unused. It is cut at the exterior wall of the house but I can extend it to the elk box pretty easily and use it for power.
 
If I put the altronix in the garage it will accept a large enough battery that the loss due to cold won't be a problem. Altronix tech support tells me that the al400ulb will accept and charge up to a 40ah battery. I have an 18ah that I can put with it and an 8ah or 12ah with the controller to ensure that the altronix standby is longer than the controller standby time.
 
At this point I'm not convinced that I need to add any power to the system at all. I installed the new controller yesterday and it is running well so far. If my problems were caused by overloading the power supply it could be that the power supply on the control was faulty and causing the system restarts or maybe there was some other controller problem.
 
Ideally I would like to see as little equipment in the cold garage as possible. I am probably going to end up with the altronix in the house feeding the garage via the 16awg cable. That is assuming that it runs well that way. I am going to have to test that configuration and if it runs well I will cut the wall and permanently install the altronix.
 

I don't understand why you would need to or want to recess the Altronix enclosure. They're not designed for flush mounting in a sheetrock wall, not to mention that significantly complicates the installation and/or any separation.

 
My elk enclosure is at the top of the basement staircase in a narrow passage. If I flush mount the altronix box there you will bang into it when you walk by. It needs to be recessed due to space restrictions.

 

[RAL]

DEL -
 
To expand on Mike's question about placing the Altronix AL400 in the house vs the garage.  I understand the issues of needing to derate the battery capacity if it were to be placed in the unheated garage.  But I wonder whether the charger/power supply board would have any problems at very cold temperatures, say 0 degrees F (-17C).
 
Have you installed these where they encounter such low temperatures?  Any operational problems?

 

[mikefamig]

DEL -
 
To expand on Mike's question about placing the Altronix AL400 in the house vs the garage.  I understand the issues of needing to derate the battery capacity if it were to be placed in the unheated garage.  But I wonder whether the charger/power supply board would have any problems at very cold temperatures, say 0 degrees F (-17C).
 
Have you installed these where they encounter such low temperatures?  Any operational problems?

RAL
 
I sent that question to altronix and will let you know when I hear back from them.
 
If the garage wasn't so large I would just insulate and heat it. I have hung sheetrock in about half of the first floor and plan to do more as time money and health permits but I will have to hire help to do the ceilings. I got an estimate on having it done professionally and it gave me sticker shock! I also want to wire a couple of more devices before closing up the walls.
 
Mike.

 

[mikefamig]

I received a reply from Altronix regarding minimum temp:
 
"The AL400ULPD4 nominal operating temperature is 0-49 degrees Celsius. Below freezing,  it is recommended to put a heater top maintain temperatures above 0"
 
They did not elaborate on what would fail or why.
 
Mike.

 

[mikefamig]

Yes, you would able to be at the 13-15 range easily with a good battery on the supply.
 
Centralized at the M1, you'd use the diodes to drop the voltage for any peripherals you install and connect to the supply in the house. While most will live and be happy with a higher voltage, some equipment doesn't fare so well with overvolt.
 
A single supply would or could take any device you want to run and loadshed off the M1, allow a good standby time with an appropriately sized battery and still be supervised by the panel via a single zone input. Would also negate any temperature concerns and the necessity for multiple supplies, transformers, batteries (besides the panel and supply).

 
DEL
 
I shouldn't have doubted you. I fired up teh altronix supply today and it was outputting 13.6vdc no-load. I gave vr1 a little tweak and when it hit 16vdc I didn't want to go any higher. I've decided to go with this ps in the house powering the entire system.
 
Mike.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

DEL
 
I shouldn't have doubted you. I fired up teh altronix supply today and it was outputting 13.6vdc no-load. I gave vr1 a little tweak and when it hit 16vdc I didn't want to go any higher. I've decided to go with this ps in the house powering the entire system.
 
Mike.

Curious what the voltage to the battery is after this adjustment...

 

[mikefamig]

Curious what the voltage to the battery is after this adjustment...

 
I only did a quick test with it plugged into an ac outlet and had no battery attached. I will keep a close eye on the charging voltage when I first install it. I have no intention to run the unit a t6 volts. I was just surprised to see it adjust that high. I am hoping that everything will work at no more than 14vdc.
 
Mike.

 

[drvnbysound]

I recall earlier posts discussing the distance to the garage and the associated voltage drop. Have you checked the voltage out in the garage?

 

[mikefamig]

I recall earlier posts discussing the distance to the garage and the associated voltage drop. Have you checked the voltage out in the garage?

I don't understand the question, I think that you have gotten behind the conversation. We are discussing a power supply that is not installed in the system yet.
 
Mike.

 

[drvnbysound]

I don't understand the question, I think that you have gotten behind the conversation. We are discussing a power supply that is not installed in the system yet.
 
Mike.

 
You mentioned above that you are planning to use the Altronix to power the entire system... I assume this to mean both the house components as well as garage components.
 
There are also posts above asking about installing it in the house vs. the garage. I didn't see anything clarifying where you have decided to install - I assumed the house due to temperatures mentioned.