Apologies and another question

mikefamig said:
When I had the p212s in the house I used three cat5e leads twisted together as one to carry the power and the voltage drop was only 0.6 volts. I had 13.8 at the house and 13.2 at the garage so I think htat I will be ok with the 16awg that I will be using with the altronix.
 
Mike.
 
Another point that I'd like to make here is that with the 13.2 volts at the garage that I had when the p212s was installed in the house the system should have run fine but it didn't. This is what leads me to believe that it was the power supply on the controller that was causing system restarts among  other symptoms. I think now that I could just put the 212s back in the house and be ok but that doesn't leave me much power for expansion so I am going to upgrade to the 4 amp altronix.
 
I did the rough-in and the altronix enclosure is installed in the wall and I will do the wiring shortly. I want the system to run as-is for a while to prove itself. I want things to stabilize for a while.
 
Mike.
 
Well almost.... with the one exception that the twa is running from the p1216 wall wart and was originally on the controller and the xep is on the controller and used to be on the p1216.
 
There was an interesting new developement today relating back to my errant chimes.
 
I finished installing the altronix power supply this afternoon and set it to output 13.8 volts. I decided to move loads over to it one at a time just to be careful and started with the m1twa which is rated to draw up to 1 amp. I fired up the system and after about fifteen minutes I had an errant chime. I checked the voltage at the twa and it was still 13.8 volts.
 
The logical thing to do was to reverse the work that I had just done so I disconnected the twa from the altronix and put it back on the p1216 wall wart and it has been a half hour with no errant chime. Then it occured to me to check the voltage at the twa (from the p1216) and it is only 12.1 volts as compared to the 13.8 that I set the altronix to. This led me to look at the twa specs and it calls for 9 - 14 volts. I was running it very near it's high voltage limit.
 
Can anyone think of why the difference in power supply to the twa could make the system behave this way? That is assuming that the system remains running well tonight.
 
Mike.
 
I can't think of a simple explanation for this.  The TWA primarily takes outputs from the M1, and the only inputs back to the M1 are the audio from the microphones.  It's hard to see how that could cause errant chimes.  The chime must be originating from the M1, and all I can think of is that there is some interaction going on between the two power supplies.  Why this also wouldn't happen when the TWA is getting power from the P1216 is puzzling.
 
[Edit]:  Corrected connector number below:
 
So... do you have the +12V red wire connected from the J4 connector on the TWA back to the M1?  I assume you are providing power to the TWA from the Altronix via the AUX power input.  If you do have the red wire connected, I think I would try disconnecting that as the next step.
 
It's never a good idea to have the +V outputs from two power supplies connected together, unless they were both designed to operate in parallel.  It surprises me that Elk doesn't specifically say that the red wire should be disconnected when an aux supply is used.
 
RAL said:
I can't think of a simple explanation for this.  The TWA primarily takes outputs from the M1, and the only inputs back to the M1 are the audio from the microphones.  It's hard to see how that could cause errant chimes.  The chime must be originating from the M1, and all I can think of is that there is some interaction going on between the two power supplies.  Why this also wouldn't happen when the TWA is getting power from the P1216 is puzzling.
 
So... do you have the +12V red wire connected from the J1/J3 connector on the TWA back to the M1?  I assume you are providing power to the TWA from the Altronix via the AUX power input.  If you do have the red wire connected, I think I would try disconnecting that as the next step.
 
It's never a good idea to have the +V outputs from two power supplies connected together, unless they were both designed to operate in parallel.  It surprises me that Elk doesn't specifically say that the red wire should be disconnected when an aux supply is used.
RAL
 
I just had an errant chime with the p1216 powering the twa so it's back to the drawing board. J2 and J4 of the twa are connected to the M1 and yes the p1216 is connected to the auxilliary input on the twa in correct polarity.
 
One other thing that i did was to connect the 18ah battery to the M1 for a short wile this afternoon and as soon as I powered the system up it spoke and open zone which was the first errant zone. I dismissed it at that time but it was unusal. Both the instruction manual and label on the M1 show 7ah to 18ah battery is ok with the board so I couldn't imagine that causing a problem but it was when I heard the first bad chime. The only logical conclusion that I can come to is that I have a loose connection somewhere but I have checked and double checked everything.
 
Mike.
 
\
 
I will leave the twa on teh p1216 overnight and see what happens.
 
I think thatmy next move will be to remove the twa and then go to the task of getting the p212s auxilliary supply out of the garage and get the garage powered by the altronix. My first priority is to get the system stabel with both power supplies inside the warm house.
 
I put a terminal strip in the elk enclosure that is connected to the 12 volt outputs in the altronix. These will be used to power devices in the elk enclosure. Is there any other connection sthat I need between the altronix and the control? I know that I can monitor ac fail and low battery fail via zones. Anything else? Should I tie the 12 volt common together?
 
Mike.
 
OK i just pulled the twa like a bad tooth and will see how the system runs overnight. I did this based on the fact that even my old controller that I replaced ran well with the twa removed. To be accurate, the system ran well with the twa connected and the rftw disconnected and it ran well with the rftw connected and the twa disconnected but not with the two together.
 
I just can't get over the fact that this control ran great for the past five days and alI I did today was to take the twa off the p1216 and put it on the  altronix and I'm back to having errant chimes. I thought that I was moving very slowly and very carefully and still I had a problem. I've never worked with a more fussy device in my life. I'm willing to take responsibility for my mistakes but I can't think of anything that I did to cause a problem. I wish that I could prove that I'm dealing with a design flaw and move forward and stop wasting my time. I couldn't even hire an installer to fix it becasue they could come and sit here for an hour and not hear an errant chime. Even Elk has said to me that they have never heard of this happening.
 
A HAI Leviton controller is starting to look like an option, Mike.
 
 
Mike.
 
Is the TWA running with a common negative?
 
Starting like the TWA has been the culprit all along. Maybe the loads attached to the outputs on it are dragging it down.
 
HAI is another bundle of joy compared to the M1. Only difference is you buy the parts out of the same HAI box...like a certain fruit technology company.
 
DELInstallations said:
Is the TWA running with a common negative?
 
Starting like the TWA has been the culprit all along. Maybe the loads attached to the outputs on it are dragging it down.
 
I had one 8 ohm speaker on one of teh outputs and one 32 ohm speaker on another and nothing on the third output so I can't see a problem there.
 
DELInstallations said:
HAI is another bundle of joy compared to the M1. Only difference is you buy the parts out of the same HAI box...like a certain fruit technology company.
 
I was just kidding about changing teams. It has been quite since I removed the twa and I am off to play some xbox. I've had enough for one day, it's like my house is mocking me.
 
Mike.
DEL
 
mikefamig said:
OK i just pulled the twa like a bad tooth and will see how the system runs overnight. I did this based on the fact that even my old controller that I replaced ran well with the twa removed. To be accurate, the system ran well with the twa connected and the rftw disconnected and it ran well with the rftw connected and the twa disconnected but not with the two together.
 
Leaving the TWA disconnected is a reasonable course of action at this point.  If the system behaves correctly without it, it would certainly point to the TWA being a part of the problem.  The question is, how long to wait before you decide everything is stable?
 
I say that the TWA could be just part of the problem, because interaction between the power supplies could be the real cause, and they are being connected together through the TWA.
 
You do need a NEG/common connection between the TWA's power supply (the P1216 or the Altronix) and the M1.   You are probably getting this now through the jumper cable that connects to J16 on the M1.   But those connectors don't always give you a good, solid connection, so you should add a separate wire that is secured to screw-type terminals on both sides.
 
Earlier, I recommended cutting the red wire in the jumper cable as a next step.  Before you resort to that, there is a simple test you can make.  Disconnect the cable from J16 on the M1, and use a multimeter to measure whether there is any voltage between the red and black wires in the cable, while the TWA is powered up.  If you measure any voltage, that would tell you that the power supplies will indeed be connected together via the jumper cable.  And that would be a bad thing, in my opinion. 
 
If you measure 0V, then the TWA is providing some isolation between the supplies and it shouldn't be necessary to cut the red wire.  I could be wrong, but I suspect there is no isolation.
 
I can tell you from experience that power supplies do really strange things when they are connected together, especially if there is any difference in their output voltages and both are trying to regulate their outputs.  They end up fighting each other.
 
RAL said:
Leaving the TWA disconnected is a reasonable course of action at this point.  If the system behaves correctly without it, it would certainly point to the TWA being a part of the problem.  The question is, how long to wait before you decide everything is stable?
I'll let it stay overnight and tinker some more tomorrow if time allows.
RAL said:
I say that the TWA could be just part of the problem, because interaction between the power supplies could be the real cause, and they are being connected together through the TWA.
 
You do need a NEG/common connection between the TWA's power supply (the P1216 or the Altronix) and the M1.   You are probably getting this now through the jumper cable that connects to J16 on the M1.   But those connectors don't always give you a good, solid connection, so you should add a separate wire that is secured to screw-type terminals on both side
I did not tie the commons together when the altronix was powering the twa.
 
RAL said:
Earlier, I recommended cutting the red wire in the jumper cable as a next step.  Before you resort to that, there is a simple test you can make.  Disconnect the cable from J16 on the M1, and use a multimeter to measure whether there is any voltage between the red and black wires in the cable, while the TWA is powered up.  If you measure any voltage, that would tell you that the power supplies will indeed be connected together via the jumper cable.  And that would be a bad thing, in my opinion. 
As I said the twa is removed now and I want to leave it out for a while. I will call Elk and ask them whether the j16 cable should have the red wire cut when using aux power on the twa.
RAL said:
If you measure 0V, then the TWA is providing some isolation between the supplies and it shouldn't be necessary to cut the red wire.  I could be wrong, but I suspect there is no isolation.
 
I can tell you from experience that power supplies do really strange things when they are connected together, especially if there is any difference in their output voltages and both are trying to regulate their outputs.  They end up fighting each other.
 
Keep in mind that I had errant chimes when the twa was powered from the M1 alone and before connecting any aux power to it.
 
At the moment I don't want to spend much time with the twa. The next thing that I want to accomplish is to remove the p212s from the garage and connect the altronix in it's place. If that works well I will be happy to have a complete functioning system and let it run that way for a while.
 
Mike.
 
Mike -
 
I'd forgotten that at one point, you did have the errant chimes even though the TWA was powered from the M1 itself.  Thanks for refreshing my memory.
 
If it is just the TWA itself that causes the chimes, no matter what is powering it, that is very puzzling. 
 
RAL said:
Mike -
 
I'd forgotten that at one point, you did have the errant chimes even though the TWA was powered from the M1 itself.  Thanks for refreshing my memory.
 
If it is just the TWA itself that causes the chimes, no matter what is powering it, that is very puzzling. 
That is why we started thinking that it was not any one particular device causing the errant chaimes but that maybe it was an over-load on the power supplies. I think that I have now disproved that theory. I did not however have the commons connected between power supplies when I powered the twa with the altronix so maybe that was a problem.
 
I am having trouble seeing where connecting the commons together makes a difference in powering the devices. I can why the circuit that supervises the devices needs a common reference but I wasn't supervising the altronix. It was simply pwering the twa and it was adjusted to 13.8 volts just the same as the M1 control ps.
 
Mike..
 
 
 
Mike.
 
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