Apologies and another question

[Neurorad]

Page 3 of the P212s instructions show 2 jumper locations on the board, JP1 and across 'Neg' and 'M' ('Important'), for M1 Data Bus Mode operation (vs 'Stand-Alone mode').
 
Again, for posterity's sake, when you enrolled the P212s, did you define it as a 'Power Supervisory Zone', and set type to '0, EOL Supervised'?
 
(Stupid question, but did you un-enroll the P212s?)
 
Are any devices on the bus grounded?  Does the garage have a dedicated ground that isn't bonded to the house?  Does the garage have a separate electrical service?  From what I gather, currently, everything is powered from the house, from the M1 control board and the Altronix.  Are the garage or house devices in a metal enclosure that might be grounded?  Did you add an outlet to any metal enclosures?  Are you using standoffs?
 
Did you bond the Altronix and M1 control negative common terminals, in the house, or just at the garage DBH?
 
A couple times now, searching old posts, I've read DEL's mention of problems using Altronix with the Elk M1, and a resultant Elk white paper.  Did you look into that?
 
http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/22475-altronix-power-supply-weirdness/?p=183757
 
I did read this whole thread last night, and I don't recall DEL mentioning that potential issue; I'm guessing it's a particular line of Altronix PS - he offered to let you try some of his Altronix hardware.
 
I've learned a great deal from this thread, Mike.  Thanks!

 

[mikefamig]

Fort he sake of clarity I am posting a diagram of my system. I have left out the two speakers which are attached to out1 and the telephone system.
 

 

[mikefamig]

Elk P212s jumper capture.GIF
Page 3 of the P212s instructions show 2 jumper locations on the board, JP1 and across 'Neg' and 'M' ('Important'), for M1 Data Bus Mode operation (vs 'Stand-Alone mode').

done

Again, for posterity's sake, when you enrolled the P212s, did you define it as a 'Power Supervisory Zone', and set type to '0, EOL Supervised'?

done

(Stupid question, but did you un-enroll the P212s?)

done

Are any devices on the bus grounded?  
nothing is earth grounded
 
Does the garage have a dedicated ground that isn't bonded to the house?  
garage powered from house, properly bonded, neutral float.
 
Does the garage have a separate electrical service?  
 
no
 
From what I gather, currently, everything is powered from the house, from the M1 control board and the Altronix.  
true
 
Are the garage or house devices in a metal enclosure that might be grounded?  Did you add an outlet to any metal enclosures?  
yes the elk enclosures both have ac outlet boxes that are properly grounded Altronix box also properly grounded
 
Are you using standoffs?
Yes, boards are on isolated elk mounts
 
Did you bond the Altronix and M1 control negative common terminals, in the house, or just at the garage DBH?
al boards have same common reference in both house and garage
 
A couple times now, searching old posts, I've read DEL's mention of problems using Altronix with the Elk M1, and a resultant Elk white paper.  Did you look into that?
I believe that it has to do with standby voltages and times. I have not seen the white page. I had the same problem with the p212s adn altronix.
 
http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/22475-altronix-power-supply-weirdness/?p=183757
 
I did read this whole thread last night, and I don't recall DEL mentioning that potential issue; I'm guessing it's a particular line of Altronix PS - he offered to let you try some of his Altronix hardware.

I ran my altronix by DEL and he didn't object. It is the same supply that he recommended to me except that it has fuses rather than breakers.

I've learned a great deal from this thread, Mike.  Thanks!

We're learning together. You brought up several good points but it has all been covered. Many of the potential problems that you suggest would cause persistent problems and my start-ups and errant chimes (which I haven't heard in a while) have been very intermittent.
 
I think at this point that either I have overlooked something and the answer is right under my nose or I am up against an operating system thing that my rules can be stumbling over as RAL suggested.
 
Mike.

 

[Neurorad]

Could an OVR output conductor be touching a (possibly grounded) GDO chassis?
 
The XEP has a ground conductor, within the serial port - and I'm guessing also within the Ethernet port - are those isolated from the control? Are you using a serial connection?
 
How is the power quality in your nape of the neck?  Any sags, that you know?  I guess the DC PS outputs wouldn't be much affected by those, though.
 
Have you tried [gently] blowing out dust/debris from the RJ45 ports?
 
You could re-crimp some of the category cable ends.  I know you said they looked good.  Same with the beanie/dolphin/yellow jacket splices.
 
Are you using factory-made category cables everywhere that you could?

 

[mikefamig]

Could an OVR output conductor be touching a (possibly grounded) GDO chassis?

This would only cause a problem when the output relay was activated

The XEP has a ground conductor, within the serial port - and I'm guessing also within the Ethernet port - are those isolated from the control? Are you using a serial connection?

Elk connector between xep and M1 serial port
 

How is the power quality in your nape of the neck?  Any sags, that you know?  I guess the DC PS outputs wouldn't be much affected by those, though.

What do you mean by "nape of the neck"?
 

Have you tried [gently] blowing out dust/debris from the RJ45 ports?

All new clean parts.
 

You could re-crimp some of the category cable ends.  I know you said they looked good.  Same with the beanie/dolphin/yellow jacket splices.

Hell I can re-crimp them all but I am not going to do that much work without some evidence that it's necessary. A bad data connection on the data bus would cause a large amount of data errors which I do not have. Power loss would cause a start up but I havn't been able to find a power loss problem..
 

Are you using factory-made category cables everywhere that you could?

That would be impossible as everything is custom length and through walls and things.

 

[mikefamig]

Hey I think that I just GOT nape of the neck. You must mean my neck of the woods!
 
The power here is reliable and the backup battery should take care of a sag. the power supplies are 0 voltage drop on switching to backup in a sag or drop.

 

[drvnbysound]

Are any devices on the bus grounded?  
- nothing is earth grounded

 
Just curious, do you have any surge protection? Such as ELK-950? The above quote stood out to me, as they do require an earth ground.

 

[mikefamig]

Just curious, do you have any surge protection? Such as ELK-950? The above quote stood out to me, as they do require an earth ground.

I have an elk-952

 

[drvnbysound]

I have an elk-952

 
I don't think this has anything to do with your issue, but I assume from the previous post that this is not earth grounded... ??

 

[mikefamig]

I don't think this has anything to do with your issue, but I assume from the previous post that this is not earth grounded... ??

the 952 is earth grounded as required

 

[Neurorad]

'Nape of the woods' would have been more apropros.
 
All your 'in-can' interconnects could be factory category cables, device to device, for troubleshooting.  Long runs, of course, are more difficult/impossible to use factory-made cables.
 
Bad connections are always my first thought when troubleshooting.

 

[mikefamig]

'Nape of the woods' would have been more apropros.
 
All your 'in-can' interconnects could be factory category cables, device to device, for troubleshooting.  Long runs, of course, are more difficult/impossible to use factory-made cables.
 
Bad connections are always my first thought when troubleshooting.

I have an rj-45 tester but the tester requires an rj-45 plug on both ends of the cable while many of the cables are terminated on only one end and the other end is connected to an adapter with screw terminals. If I suspect a bad cable I can terminate both ends of the cable, test and then cut one rj-45  plug off but I haven't felt it necessary.
 
I think that I would be getting a lot of data errors if I had a bad connection on the rs-485 data bus and that is not the case. I have also wiggled and tugged all connections with a volt meter connected to the devices and can not find a glitch. It's always possible that there is an intermittent connection somewhere but can be very difficult to prove.
 
Mike.

 

[Neurorad]

Have you tried using a different pair in the 200' cat cable, for data A and data B?  Unless you pulled it yourself, you never know how much stress was placed on it, or if it was ever kinked.

 

[mikefamig]

Have you tried using a different pair in the 200' cat cable, for data A and data B?  Unless you pulled it yourself, you never know how much stress was placed on it, or if it was ever kinked.

I am told that a bad data connection will not cause the system to auto start-up. Auto startup is caused when the supply voltage to the device falls below ~12v.
 
Pulled the cable myself and it was an easy pull. At some point I may just buy a few hundred feet of cat5e cable and run a test cable between the M1 and the garage above ground.

 

[Neurorad]

Cheaper to move the DBH, OVR, XIN and KP into the house, for troubleshooting, than buy a new long category cable. 
 
The TWA is currently not connected, and you tried removing the Elk wireless transceiver, those ruled out.
 
Rules, programming - did Elk get back to you about the rules?
 
[SIZE=14.3999996185303px]After re-doing connections, I'd either start replacing devices on the bus, replace the DBHs, or get DEL to pay a visit, but I'm pretty sure you know that.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=14.3999996185303px]Are you using stranded wire anywhere besides the 18 AWG for power?  Stray strands, and such.  I've read of some people using stranded category cable, but it's rare.[/SIZE]