Broconne's Wiring Adventure

[heffneil]

I think I have a great automation idea for your laundry room. Technically you are supposed to turn off the water valves leading to your washer when you aren't using the washer or in the house. I know sometimes we start a load and leave the house so this wouldn't work for us or a variation would. But anyway set your HA system to shut down two valves leading from the water supply to the washer in the even that your are away or on vacation?

The alternative and amazingly over the top plan would be to use current sensors to trigger the valves open when you turn the washer on. That would take some experimenting. Our new LG washer warns if the water is off so I don't know if the current draw would be great enough to cause a noticable difference than just sitting idle. You could modify your washer to open the valves. Too bad washers don't come with serial ports

Neil

 

[Neurorad]

Timely article from CEPro on central vac install tips

 

[icellama21]

I think I have a great automation idea for your laundry room. Technically you are supposed to turn off the water valves leading to your washer when you aren't using the washer or in the house. I know sometimes we start a load and leave the house so this wouldn't work for us or a variation would. But anyway set your HA system to shut down two valves leading from the water supply to the washer in the even that your are away or on vacation?

The alternative and amazingly over the top plan would be to use current sensors to trigger the valves open when you turn the washer on. That would take some experimenting. Our new LG washer warns if the water is off so I don't know if the current draw would be great enough to cause a noticable difference than just sitting idle. You could modify your washer to open the valves. Too bad washers don't come with serial ports

Neil

The first step in a washer cycle is to open the water valve. You can place a small 120V(my washer's valve is 120V) relay coil in series with the valve(try to get a low resistance coil) to detect when the cycle starts. You may have to get a double pole relay to switch both your automation circuit AND the water valve if the relay coil drops too much voltage in series with the valve. Alternatively a very sensitive current sensor can work too, but the water valve doesn't draw much so it may not work.

 

[broconne]

Cabinets above W/D should extend from top of W/D to the ceiling. You can't have enough storage in the laundry room.

They do actually extend all the way. For some reason I could not get the cabinet to scale in sketchup. I gave up after 15 minutes.

Room for a utility sink, drying rack, or ironing board?

we are extremely space challenged in this room. Originally the laundry room was on the first floor (and smaller), but that made the mudroom small, so we moved this room upstairs and one of the bedrooms lost a walk-in closet. The size of this room has been quite the debate for a while with the primary room occupant not pleased - but it is a compromise we made because we like he rest of the house. We do like that it is on the second floor with the rest of the bedroom. Originally in the downstairs version, there was room for a sink. However, my vote to keep that sink intact when we moved the laundry room upstairs was vetoed. I spend no time in this room so how can I argue? Anyway, there is the possibility that on the right hand wall we can take a small amount of space from the adjacent bedroom closet and get a 2'x2' sink in there. Drying rack may go on the wall opposite from the W/D. Ironing board may fold out from the wall as well. This is easily the room we dislike in the house the most. We really wanted another 3 feet of space in here - but couldn't make that happen.

Where will you keep the central vac hose? It usually hangs on a wall - laundry room might be a good place.
I'm unfamiliar with a vacuum pan for litter. Do you dump cat litter into it? Or is it like a cat toilet?

We are doing a hide-a-hose system so nothing should be hanging on the wall, the hose retracts into the actual tubing for the vacuum system. I think we will put it in the linen closet but I need to work that out with the LV contractor. It has to be less than 60 ft from all ends of each floor. The vacuum pan isn't actually "for" litter that is just what we will use it for. It is a just a pan that gets installed in the floor or under a cabinet kick plate that you can sweep things into, once you sweep things in there you can turn it on with your foot and whatever is in the pan get sucked down by the central vac. We are installing 3 of them, one right near the kitchen, one in the mudroom, and one in here. It is useful for areas that generate a lot of dirt every day and you don't want to get out the hose every time to clean up a quick mess. So, we would just sweep any litter that gets tracked outside of the box into this vacuum pan.

Is that a touchscreen/monitor in the 3D pic?

Probably just a TV for closed circuit while doing laundry, but it has a pipe chase so it could be a touch screen if that was more useful.

 

[broconne]

In this room I would suggest a nice washer pan for holding any leaking water. They make some really nice ones. Not those cheapo plastic ones you get at home depot. Also there is a nice system for the dry duct that recesses it in the wall so there isn't a kink. Just make sure that everything is roughed in on the proper sides. If this is second story (and I believe it is) I would suggest 12" on center floor joists and an additional layer of plywood screwed - not nailed. The front loaders and even the top loading HE (high efficiency) units all have concrete counterbalances. They can wreak havoc on your house if it isn't designed to support that kind of weight!

Neil

What is the benefit of a better washer pan? In case of a leak it holds up better? I will ask the builder what kind of supports we need to make sure the washer/dryer are OK. Are you saying do two layers of plywood in the laundry room or everywhere? I imagine that is expensive to do everywhere..
I actually don't know if the plywood is screwed and not nailed on the second floor. I am going to assume it is since I know in the attic they use tongue and groove plywood that is screwed and glued. Would seem odd to do that in the attic and not the other two floors.

Thanks for the tips on the second story W/D!

 

[broconne]

I think I have a great automation idea for your laundry room. Technically you are supposed to turn off the water valves leading to your washer when you aren't using the washer or in the house. I know sometimes we start a load and leave the house so this wouldn't work for us or a variation would. But anyway set your HA system to shut down two valves leading from the water supply to the washer in the even that your are away or on vacation?

The alternative and amazingly over the top plan would be to use current sensors to trigger the valves open when you turn the washer on. That would take some experimenting. Our new LG washer warns if the water is off so I don't know if the current draw would be great enough to cause a noticable difference than just sitting idle. You could modify your washer to open the valves. Too bad washers don't come with serial ports

Neil

Good ideas!
You can do this with H/A, but there is also an out of the box solution: Current Sensing Shutoff Valve

For H/A method you could do this:
IF Armed And Washing_Current_Sensor == Off
Then
Washing_Valve = Off


And repeat that so that after the current load is done the valve gets shutoff until you get home.

Also, you would want a leak sensor to turn off the valve if there is a leak regardless of away state.

 

[beelzerob]

Are floods from washers really that common an occurence to be worth preventing at this cost? In the 10+ years of owning a washer, I've never had anything like this come close to happening. Of course, it only takes once....

Right now our washer sits in a tray that contains a drain...so if something happens internal to the washer, I've really no fears that it'll be contained. I guess if the hose outside the washer burst, then that'd be a different animal...but I guess I didn't know those hoses just simply failed all of the sudden.

If that's the big fear, then it seems like you'd be able to buy a new hose every year for quite some time before you'd approach the cost of controlled valves.

 

[Neurorad]

Are floods from washers really that common an occurence to be worth preventing at this cost? In the 10+ years of owning a washer, I've never had anything like this come close to happening. Of course, it only takes once....

Right now our washer sits in a tray that contains a drain...so if something happens internal to the washer, I've really no fears that it'll be contained. I guess if the hose outside the washer burst, then that'd be a different animal...but I guess I didn't know those hoses just simply failed all of the sudden.

If that's the big fear, then it seems like you'd be able to buy a new hose every year for quite some time before you'd approach the cost of controlled valves.

Washer leaks are common. I've had 1 in 15 years, noticed it soon after it started, and no damage.

Our current house apparently had 1 before we moved in, recent large drywall ceiling patch in garage below.

Get Pex or braided steel shielded hoses, and replace them every 10 years.

You can't use a washer pan with W/D pedestals - they have drawers. I guess you could, but you couldn't use the drawer.

I'll have a flood sensor, through an alarm, connected to the whole-home water main control valve.

I was going to hold off on a new alarm for another 6-12 months, and do distributed audio first, but I'm getting nervous about flooding. I think I'll wire for both simultaneously, minimizing painting and drywall repairs. But then this pushes up the kitchen renovation, and I should probably wire for other things while I'm at it...damn...

Broconne, those central vac collection 'pans' are pretty awesome. Wish we had a few. I bet they can be located inside the wall, with only a trimmed cutout visible.

Oh, found 1:

I bet I could add 1 in the garage pretty easily...hmmm.

 

[broconne]

Are floods from washers really that common an occurence to be worth preventing at this cost? In the 10+ years of owning a washer, I've never had anything like this come close to happening. Of course, it only takes once....

Right now our washer sits in a tray that contains a drain...so if something happens internal to the washer, I've really no fears that it'll be contained. I guess if the hose outside the washer burst, then that'd be a different animal...but I guess I didn't know those hoses just simply failed all of the sudden.

If that's the big fear, then it seems like you'd be able to buy a new hose every year for quite some time before you'd approach the cost of controlled valves.

I forget the numbers, but I was watching Ask This Old House and they were talking about damage caused by washers, specially on the second floor and the cost of each repair was staggering - over 10k. If I was on the first floor or in the basement it wouldn't be that big of a deal. I do think they recommend replacing the hoses every 3 years or so.

 

[broconne]

Are floods from washers really that common an occurence to be worth preventing at this cost? In the 10+ years of owning a washer, I've never had anything like this come close to happening. Of course, it only takes once....

Right now our washer sits in a tray that contains a drain...so if something happens internal to the washer, I've really no fears that it'll be contained. I guess if the hose outside the washer burst, then that'd be a different animal...but I guess I didn't know those hoses just simply failed all of the sudden.

If that's the big fear, then it seems like you'd be able to buy a new hose every year for quite some time before you'd approach the cost of controlled valves.

Washer leaks are common. I've had 1 in 15 years, noticed it soon after it started, and no damage.

Our current house apparently had 1 before we moved in, recent large drywall ceiling patch in garage below.

Get Pex or braided steel shielded hoses, and replace them every 10 years.

You can't use a washer pan with W/D pedestals - they have drawers. I guess you could, but you couldn't use the drawer.

I'll have a flood sensor, through an alarm, connected to the whole-home water main control valve.

I was going to hold off on a new alarm for another 6-12 months, and do distributed audio first, but I'm getting nervous about flooding. I think I'll wire for both simultaneously, minimizing painting and drywall repairs. But then this pushes up the kitchen renovation, and I should probably wire for other things while I'm at it...damn...

Broconne, those central vac collection 'pans' are pretty awesome. Wish we had a few. I bet they can be located inside the wall, with only a trimmed cutout visible.

Oh, found 1:

I bet I could add 1 in the garage pretty easily...hmmm.

In the garage? I guess it must depend on where you are in the country. I have at least 12 inches of concrete before there is any place I could put a vacpan.

 

[heffneil]

The better washer pan has a flip down front so you can put the washer in without crushing the cheapo pan. Trust me I have crushed my cheapo pan and the size isn't right for my washer. They are better and better is better. The pan should have a drain so if it does leak it doesn't build up inside.

I would double up in the laundry room only or even just under the washer and dryer for the added support.

Personally I would have them glue and screw all the plywood down and all the drywall. No nails! Nails always give up. In the wall or the floor. You will get squeaks on the floor and nail pops on the drywall. What the guys like to do even if they screw "everything" is nail the corners of the drywall up and then screw its all around and in the middle. This is ok but the nails will eventually pop. They pop on the edges which are taped and that makes a real mess.

You are south like me and humidity isn't our friend so with nails and wood you will have creaks and nail pops with nails.

Hope this helps. I hate to say do it this way or it is wrong. Plenty of homes are built with nails and they are fine if you aren't anal like me and don't mind the noises on the floor and the nail pops! I even have screw pops down here in SWFL.

Good luck and lets all keep this dialogue going I really enjoy it!

Neil

 

[beelzerob]

I forget the numbers, but I was watching Ask This Old House and they were talking about damage caused by washers, specially on the second floor and the cost of each repair was staggering - over 10k. If I was on the first floor or in the basement it wouldn't be that big of a deal. I do think they recommend replacing the hoses every 3 years or so.

Hmmm...good thing I put wire in the walls for a flood sensor then, I guess. Time to put that sucker in.

 

[broconne]

The better washer pan has a flip down front so you can put the washer in without crushing the cheapo pan. Trust me I have crushed my cheapo pan and the size isn't right for my washer. They are better and better is better. The pan should have a drain so if it does leak it doesn't build up inside.

Pan with drain is code here, and I would imagine code anywhere if it is on the second floor.

I would double up in the laundry room only or even just under the washer and dryer for the added support.

That would make the height of the laundry room different than the rest of the house. Not sure that would look right.

Good luck and lets all keep this dialogue going I really enjoy it!

Hopefully it helps lots of people

 

[heffneil]

The better washer pan has a flip down front so you can put the washer in without crushing the cheapo pan. Trust me I have crushed my cheapo pan and the size isn't right for my washer. They are better and better is better. The pan should have a drain so if it does leak it doesn't build up inside.

Pan with drain is code here, and I would imagine code anywhere if it is on the second floor.

I would double up in the laundry room only or even just under the washer and dryer for the added support.

That would make the height of the laundry room different than the rest of the house. Not sure that would look right.

Good luck and lets all keep this dialogue going I really enjoy it!

Hopefully it helps lots of people

3/4" is not dramatic. Put it only under the washer and dryer or just use some threshold? You are probably putting vinyl or linoleum in there and carpet in the hall. Shouldn't be a big transition at all.

Neil

 

[broconne]

The better washer pan has a flip down front so you can put the washer in without crushing the cheapo pan. Trust me I have crushed my cheapo pan and the size isn't right for my washer. They are better and better is better. The pan should have a drain so if it does leak it doesn't build up inside.

Pan with drain is code here, and I would imagine code anywhere if it is on the second floor.

I would double up in the laundry room only or even just under the washer and dryer for the added support.

That would make the height of the laundry room different than the rest of the house. Not sure that would look right.

Good luck and lets all keep this dialogue going I really enjoy it!

Hopefully it helps lots of people

3/4" is not dramatic. Put it only under the washer and dryer or just use some threshold? You are probably putting vinyl or linoleum in there and carpet in the hall. Shouldn't be a big transition at all.

Neil

Laundry room floor is tile - hallway is hardwood. A threshold may work - I just worry about stubbed toes!