Can an ELK-P412(K) be moved into a std. can?

[LaurentR]

Sorry to bring back an old thread, but this is something I'm dealing with. I too planned on moving the components to a flush-mounted can, when I came across this thread. I guess I'm okay with mounting the P412 enclosure (with battery inside it) inside the bigger can, but did anyone actually do this? Was heat a problem? I've seen two measurements for the depth of the P412 enclosure on the Elk website (3.25" and 3.50"). Does anyone know for sure if it will fit inside an Elk 28" can? How is the P412 enclosure mounted in the 28" can? Did you mount it such that the J box knockout in the bottom of the 28" can could still be used, i.e., raised it up a few inches in the 28" can?

Thanks,
Ira

Well, it's been 2 years and I haven't updated my original set-up much. I ended up going for something similar to wuench's setup, i.e. leaving both batteries and the P412 electronics in the 14" can (see his pictures above). My 28" can is full, so that was a good decision...

That said, I managed to find my old P412 box and a spare 14" can. The P412 enclosure does fit in the 14" can, although not by much. The P412 cover fits right beneath the top and bottom"tabs", so that's maybe 2-3mm clearance from the door. The lock sticks out but I had no issue closing the 14" can door. So a close fit, but still probably a fit. I am not sure if the mounting is easy. You can always drill new holes in the back of the big can if needed. Note that the 14" can is pretty much filled by the P412, so keeping the P412 enclosure is not a great use of space.

Also note: the 14" can has a flush-mount accessory door, so you can reuse your original can with a new door (although you obviously can;t also put the M1G main board in it).

Laurent

 

[Monk]

Sorry to bring back an old thread, but this is something I'm dealing with. I too planned on moving the components to a flush-mounted can, when I came across this thread. I guess I'm okay with mounting the P412 enclosure (with battery inside it) inside the bigger can, but did anyone actually do this? Was heat a problem? I've seen two measurements for the depth of the P412 enclosure on the Elk website (3.25" and 3.50"). Does anyone know for sure if it will fit inside an Elk 28" can? How is the P412 enclosure mounted in the 28" can? Did you mount it such that the J box knockout in the bottom of the 28" can could still be used, i.e., raised it up a few inches in the 28" can?

Thanks,
Ira

Well, it's been 2 years and I haven't updated my original set-up much. I ended up going for something similar to wuench's setup, i.e. leaving both batteries and the P412 electronics in the 14" can (see his pictures above). My 28" can is full, so that was a good decision...

That said, I managed to find my old P412 box and a spare 14" can. The P412 enclosure does fit in the 14" can, although not by much. The P412 cover fits right beneath the top and bottom"tabs", so that's maybe 2-3mm clearance from the door. The lock sticks out but I had no issue closing the 14" can door. So a close fit, but still probably a fit. I am not sure if the mounting is easy. You can always drill new holes in the back of the big can if needed. Note that the 14" can is pretty much filled by the P412, so keeping the P412 enclosure is not a great use of space.

Also note: the 14" can has a flush-mount accessory door, so you can reuse your original can with a new door (although you obviously can;t also put the M1G main board in it).

Laurent

Old threads of value never die - Quite helpful, this one. I am finally going to do something with my Elk-P412 and will probably end up with a "Wuench-Like" scenario. Thanks to all who had contributed to this thread!!

 

[McKinneySmart]

This may be an old thread.  Consider it an oldie but a goodie....
 
Back in 2010 I did exactly this.  I took the power supply and distro-board out of the original can and put them into a separate 14 inch enclosure.  These components and the battery were the only thing in this separate enclosure. This way the high voltage was completely separate from the security/automation wiring which were in two (2) separate 42 inch enclosures.

 

[Del91574]

Keep in mind, by doing this you are voiding all the UL listings on the components and the enclosure. Whether or not that matters to you and your insurer would be something you need to consider.

 

[Monk]

By putting my power supply in a larger can, I am voiding UL listings? The new can is possessing a UL sticker but I'm not sure what that means.- the original had none anywhere.

 

[McKinneySmart]

Good question.  
If one really wanted to find the answer, he (or she) would have to look up the details of that specific UL listing, research the NEC codes, refer to any local and/or state regulations, ask the local AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) plus a dozen other laws/codes/regulations.  Even then, one will get 14 different/conflicting answers.  ...welcome to our over-regulated, over warning-label  world.
 
I say this with a little tongue-in-check as I step down from the soap box.  Although I properly used the cover-insulator over the 110 AC terminals and made sure there were no low voltage wires near the AC terminals and this enclosure was completely isolated from any other low voltage wiring and used "common sense" in the installation, it was not "tested" in this configuration and therefore it was installed in a manner not consistent with the UL testing.
 
However, part of the code states:  
"E4204.1 Separation from other conductors.   ...2. Class 2 conductors in compartments, enclosures, device boxes, outlet boxes and similar fittings where electric light, power, Class 1 or nonpower-limited fire alarm circuit conductors are introduced solely to connect to the equipment connected to the Class 2 circuits.  The electric light, power, Class 1 and nonpower-limited fire alarm circuit conductors shall be routed to maintain a minimum of 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) separation from the conductors and cables of the Class 2 circuits; ..."
 
So you read it as you read it.  
 
My read:  as long as there is 1/4 inch separation between the high voltage and low voltage....   And in my installation they were 4 to 6 inches apart.   But then I am not the AHJ.
 
JF

 

[wuench]

I am printing a UL sticker for mine right now....

 

[Del91574]

@ Monk and others....
 
Contrary to the sarcasm that was posted...
 
The power supply and enclosure are listed as an assembly. Modifying the supply (removing from the OEM enclosure...etc.) voids the listing of the supply and ancillary boards contained within the enclosure originally. No different than deciding to take the smoke detectors out of the OEM plastic housings and then deciding to cast some artsy units in bronze to look nicer on the ceiling. May not affect how they work, but the units are tested to be safe and operate properly in their OEM configuration.
 
While it may seem inconsequential to those who are printing out their own UL sticker...trust me, in the case of a large scale insurance loss and subsequent investigations, if the devices are suspected to possibly be the source of the loss, or a contributing factor to loss (fire alarm failed, what have you). The enclosures and installation starts to come under scrutiny...especially if the insurer doesn't want to do full dollar value or the loss is significant.
 
While many say "I've never had an issue" or "it'll never happen to me" haven't had to deal with this.....
 
The UL listing has zero to do with code compliance...nor does it have to do with whether or not the install is UL...because it's not until you have an underwriter come out and certificate the installation. I've done that dance. The components must be UL listed as an factory built assembly or in a field constructed assembly, and the field wiring does not come under that jurisdiction, that is the NEC's call. 
 
The end result is...something happens and the unit(s) were found to be field modified, now it can possibly be an issue and you're going to have to prove the modifications "did no harm". Moving components into a different enclosure and mounting method, while your method may seem more secure, better designed, what have you....it's not a listed assembly and it's field modified. It's opening yourself up for a lot of items that you don't want to consider.

 

[Monk]

Not much to do with me then - also - quit pissing on good threads.

 

[Del91574]

Not pissing on anything, valid information. Whether or not you like the facts given is going to be your decision.

The assembly as shipped from Elk is UL listed. Modification from it's as-shipped configuration is going to void the listing. Whether or not you care is your own prerogative. Whether or not your insurer cares and if they would provide coverage based on the information gathered during an inspection...well that's another.
 
Say I want to install a polished brass face on my breaker panel in the garage because grey just isn't doing it for me and I don't like the "verticality" of the breakers, why can't I cut the buss bar and turn the breakers in the housing, put a few jumpers in and build my own shiny faceplate? I'm using the same enclosure and brass is metal like the original cover and the breakers will all fit in the box still.
 
I'm presently working with a friend, insurance company, local fire marshal and state fire inspector on something similar...a control panel board caught fire in their laundry area causing massive damage. All involved had to document what turns out to be a manufacturing flaw that caused the fire, so guess who's paying for the loss and getting (most likely) served paperwork? Yep, the manufacturer. Then there's probably going to be a settlement (or even a recall) and then the insurer for both parties is going to cover the loss.

There's items that can be modified and changed, but there's items that should not. You decide how good your insurance and luck are.
 

 

[McKinneySmart]

I looked all over the recent one that I purchased and did not find a UL sticker.  
 
So this may open up another can of worms.

 

[Monk]

The one on the ELK site looks like mine. This one HERE looks like they stuck it in a different, more compact can. Odd.... Could they be "Not" UL listed at all? So far 3 people have said theirs didn't boast a UL sticker (mine included). For gosh sakes, even EMPTY cans I have bought are proudly displaying the UL listed sticker.

 

[Monk]

A little reasearch is showing the the manufacturer of the power supply, named "Mean Well Enterprises" in Japan has this UL document available. It relates specifically to the power supply - not the small green board (ELK 967) that attaches to it.
 
I'm done for today but it will be interesting if someone can come up with anything that speaks to the entire enclosure

 

[McKinneySmart]

In response to one of the first questions in this thread, yes the Elk P412 can be mounted inside a wiring enclosure.  Just today I mounted one in an OpenHouse 36 inch enclosure.  It was tight but it did fit.
 
Monk, the unit is just like the item on the Elk web site that you have in your first link.
 
The item on your second link is smaller.  Could it be the vendor is buying just the components and then mounting them in their own can?  Or is it just an old picture of how Elk used to assemble them?
 
JF

 

[Monk]

That is the point. You seem to be re-stating what I have already said.