(Elk) double zone trigger

Here is what I posted on the Elk website descibing the issue. I have not verified this issue with the latest firware but I upgraded this past weekend so I can test this again tonight. I will post more informaition after I test.

If I trip a back door zone (forgot to bypass it when letting the dogs out) the alarm triggers as expected. When I check in the log I see the back door trip and then immediately following my 2 garage overhead doors trip (extended entry delay) and then the garage door to the house (standard entry delay). I have a pretty simple set up with only 8 zones defined in all. Currently 2 of these zones are set up for non alarm zones because I am trying out 2 motion detectors for sensitivity prior to making these active alarm zones.

I can repeat this error following the described sceneario above. However, the falsely trigged zones are not always the same. For example, I just repeated this test and this time I did not get both overhead garage door zones reported falsely as I did in my prior test. I had the real tripped zone - back door, and then 2 false zones - one overhead garage door and the garage entry door to the house.

Also, just wanted to mention that all of my zones are hard wired.

Matt
 
OK, I repeated my test this evening with all the latest firmware on all my Elk equipment. On the first test I ran I received the same false zone results as before and have included a snapshot of my log and zone configuration in the attached word document.

The funny thing is that this happend the first time I ran the test tonight and then would not repeat the issue for the next 5 tests. I know this makes debugging a nightmare. Maybe somehow it has something to do with timing. I have never tested this problem with back to back tests before. I always have just run this test once after the system had been sitting idle (disarmed) for some period of time.

The sequence of events is as follows:

- I arm the system with a single button push for away mode (I think the problem occurs in night mode as well). There are no zones bypassed when I arm the system and all zones are in the normal state.
- I let the exit timer expire and then I open the back door. I immediately close the back door and then walk to the panel to wait for the entry timer to expire and the alarm to trigger. Sometimes I trigger the family room motion sensor when walking back to the alarm panel. Wheather or not I trigger the motion sensor does not seem to have any impact on the test results.
- Once the alarm is triggered I disarm it at the panel.

In the test included in the attached log the only zones that should be violated are first the back door and then the family room motion sensor tripped while the entry timer was running. The garage door and garage entry door were never actually tripped and are the ones falsely reported. Sometimes my second garage door is also falsely reported.

I hope this helps. Please let me know if there is any additional information I can provide.

Matt
 

Attachments

Here is an update. I did another test tonight after getting home from work. Same exact test as listed in the previous posts and the same results. The first time I arm and then set off the alarm I get the false zone trigger problem. Repeated tests immediately following do not produce the false triggers.
 
The first time I arm and then set off the alarm I get the false zone trigger problem. Repeated tests immediately following do not produce the false triggers.
Click to expand...

That is probably why it is hard to reproduce on the bench. I wont have time to try it for a few days but I would think if you power down and back up in between tripping the alarms it will reproduce the false trigger each time.

I think that your information will help ELK.
 
Good idea Digger. Maybe I will try to test again tonight and will turn off the M1 between tests to see if that produces consistent results.
 
I experienced this problem for the first time last night. My son wandered downstairs and set off the motion but the front door showed as being opened too. It kind of freaked me out when the alarm woke me up and the keypad said that the front door had been violated. Here is my log from nextalarm:

Dec 17, 2006 11:31:00 PM Day / Night Alert Restored Downstairs Motion (Zone 16)
Dec 17, 2006 11:30:57 PM Authorized Disarm Alan and Shelley
Dec 17, 2006 11:30:54 PM Exception during Open/Close Alan and Shelley
Dec 17, 2006 11:30:52 PM Perimeter Violation Restored Front Door (Zone 1)
Dec 17, 2006 11:30:49 PM Day / Night Alert Downstairs Motion (Zone 16)
Dec 17, 2006 11:30:45 PM Perimeter Violation Front Door (Zone 1)

Interestingly though my Homeseer log only shows the motion violation:

12/17/2006 11:29:45 PM Elk-M1 Zone Zone Change: [ 18 Updated (Downstairs Motion) to Open
12/17/2006 11:29:45 PM Elk-M1 Arm Arm Change: Entry Delay
12/17/2006 11:29:59 PM Elk-M1 Zone Zone Change: [ 18 Updated (Downstairs Motion) to Secure
12/17/2006 11:29:59 PM Elk-M1 Arm Arm Change: Entry Delay
12/17/2006 11:30:00 PM Info Running script in background: weather_amc.txt
12/17/2006 11:30:00 PM Info Event Trigger "Weather"
12/17/2006 11:30:15 PM Info Event Trigger "Good Night"
12/17/2006 11:30:15 PM Info Device: UPB Device Link Great Room - All Off (_5) Value set to 1
12/17/2006 11:30:15 PM Elk-M1 Arm Arm Change: Armed Night
12/17/2006 11:30:15 PM Elk-M1 Key Keypad Keypress Change: None
12/17/2006 11:30:16 PM Info Event Trigger "Alarm"
12/17/2006 11:30:16 PM Info Device: Outside UPB Device Link Front Porch (_7) Value set to 16
12/17/2006 11:30:16 PM Info Device: Outside UPB Device Link Front Porch (_7) Value set to 16
12/17/2006 11:30:16 PM Info Device: UPB Device Link Great Room - All On (_4) Value set to 1
12/17/2006 11:30:16 PM Info Event Trigger "Alarm"
 
if we can all keep posting maybe we can find a common thread to our setups.... The only one I see so far is most of us are using nextalarm to monitor (either free or paid) No I am not saying ti is nextalarm but is anyone having this problem that is not monitored?
 
I too am experiencing this problem. I am not currently monitored. My system has been in service for nearly a year and I just started getting false alarms. The first one was 12/24 and then I got 4 more on 12/25 in a 2 hour period. I'm sure I've racked up quite the bill with the local police for false alarms.

I can also confirm that the 'false zone reporting' only seems to happen on the first trip in a series. For instance, mine reported my motion sensor followed by the door between my garage and house (entry delay door). On 12/25, I only saw this the first time it tripped. The three subsequent alarms only indicated the motion.

I really don't understand why this problem started all of a sudden. I've never had a single false alarm and then I had 5 in two days. My motion is pet immune, but I can only figure that my two small dogs (10 - 12lbs each) are playing and setting it off. Doesn't explain why its never happened before, though.

I've disconnected my siren until I can figure out what's going on. I can't have any more false alarms. We've had alot of breakin activity in my neighborhood and I don't want anyone to start ignoring alarms due to too many false alarms. They're really good at checking things out as it is and I want to keep it that way.

I upgraded to 4.4.4 a few months ago.

Any advice greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Vance
 
I too am experiencing this problem. I am not currently monitored. My system has been in service for nearly a year and I just started getting false alarms. The first one was 12/24 and then I got 4 more on 12/25 in a 2 hour period. I'm sure I've racked up quite the bill with the local police for false alarms.

I can also confirm that the 'false zone reporting' only seems to happen on the first trip in a series. For instance, mine reported my motion sensor followed by the door between my garage and house (entry delay door). On 12/25, I only saw this the first time it tripped. The three subsequent alarms only indicated the motion.

I really don't understand why this problem started all of a sudden. I've never had a single false alarm and then I had 5 in two days. My motion is pet immune, but I can only figure that my two small dogs (10 - 12lbs each) are playing and setting it off. Doesn't explain why its never happened before, though.

I've disconnected my siren until I can figure out what's going on. I can't have any more false alarms. We've had alot of breakin activity in my neighborhood and I don't want anyone to start ignoring alarms due to too many false alarms. They're really good at checking things out as it is and I want to keep it that way.

I upgraded to 4.4.4 a few months ago.

Any advice greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Vance
Click to expand...

Technically the M1 is not causing a problem with the false alarms if you have a motion tripping. The problem of reporting multiple zones tripped when only one is tripped is where there seems to be a problem with the M1 but you still had an alarm so no harm done really from the M1. You are seeing the same thing as everyone else I think. That only the first alarm causes the multiple zone trip and not the second or third alarm etc.

Is it the same motion each time? If its a new install is it pointed to a source of heat that has only become active recently? You may need to reposition the motion.
 
Hey Digger,

Thanks for the info. True that it isn't causing the issue, although it did make for one very stressful Christmas eve. From looking at the logs, we were assuming the intruder must have snuck into our garage while we were loading up and then entered the house once we left. The really freaky part is that we could not figure out how they exited. Imagine laying in bed and hearing the normal 'house noises' and not knowing whether someone is in the house or not.

The police cleared the house once and I cleared it at least twice, including the attic, every cabinet, closet, etc.

As for the motion, this is not a really new install. The motion is actually from the previous system, although I never used that system so I'm not sure if it was problematic previously. I did most of the work for the new install in March. This is the only motion currently in the system. It is pretty close to being under a ceiling heater vent. The sensor is roughly 5 feet below and 5 feet to the side. Its also possible this was one of the first times the system was armed away while the heater was on. The evenings were not particularly cold, but I'm sure the heater would have kicked on some.

At any rate, I was mostly just venting and looking for some guidance. I appreciate you helping with both.

Thanks again,
Vance
 
You might want to experiment. If you make the motion a non alarm zone temporarily and have the M1 say a message everytime it is tripped you can see if the heat is doing it. You just need to write a rule to say something everytime that zone is not secure.

Then stay out of the room and run the heat. If it doesnt trip let the dogs run around in that room for a while.

Basically just use process of elimination.
 
Digger said:
If you make the motion a non alarm zone temporarily and have the M1 say a message everytime it is tripped you can see if the heat is doing it.
Click to expand...
The problem with that method is that it only works if you are home and awake/aware enough to hear it. It would be neat if there was a way to make a rule that would write something to the Elk log. This is easy enough to do for those with automation software that can do logging, but I don't know how to do it for a stand-alone install.
 
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